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Discussion & Debate Thread: Flames and Canucks

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Schneider is not 2.75 haha. He's 1.55 until he either plays the full season or wins the Norris. Honestly, those are his bonuses.

Just some fun analysis. 6 if you're a number one guy, 5 if you're a number two guy, and so on. Then I'll multiply it by the minutes each player could average.

Bouwmeester = 6 x 25 = 150

Phaneuf = 5 x 22.5 = 112.5

Regehr = 4.5 x 22.5 = 101.25

Sarich = 3 x 20 = 60

Giordano = 2 x 15 = 30

Pardy = 1 x 15 = 15

Average minute rating (add points, divide by 120) of 3.91

Mitchell = 4.5 x 22.5 = 101.25

Bieksa = 4 x 22.5 = 90

Edler = 3.5 x 22.5 = 78.5

Salo = 3.5 x 20 = 70

Ehrhoff = 3.5 x 20 = 70

Schneider/O'Brien = 2 x 12.5 = 25

Average minute rating (add points, divide by 120) of 3.62

So the Flames are officially better!

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[quote name='yukonwolf wrote:


Pleasetell me you're joking.  On a Florida team that was/is going nowherefast, Bouwmeester was the only bright spot.  I can't believe you wouldtry to use that as an argument.  You've been around here long enoughfor me to know your smarter than that.

Did you notice what I was replying to?

I've said many times I like Bouwmeester, even at 6.6 million. On the other hand, I don't understand why it is so hard for Flames fans to admit the Canucks got better by acquiring Christian Ehrhoff, Mathieu Schneider and Brad Lukowich for close to nothing... so far.

Barney_Gumble wrote:

Dusty_Foot_Philosopher']Schneider is not 2.75 haha. He's 1.55 until he either plays the full season or wins the Norris. Honestly, those are his bonuses.

Still, the bonuses count against the cap, whether they're met or not; so for all intents and purposes the number of $2.75 matters. Unless he has to play in all 82 games in which case $1.2 million is freed up if he misses one game. (if you could expand on the bonus details, it would be appreciated)

The Canucks will very likely be employing the bonus cushion this year. That means any bonuses earned (Hodgson, Schneider, etc.) would be carried over to count against next year's cap. However, I doubt it will be a large amount, as every team loses a little cap along the way due to injuries and player movement.

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(Since people are still bugging me about the Bouwmeester/Luongo comparison, which was a joke, I'll try to make another joke.)

Here is my impersonation of a Flame fan:

Before Sutter does something:

It's not okay. We were terrible last season, and haven't made any major changes. We will easily lose in the first round, like we do every year.

After Sutter does something:

ZOMG! Sutter is A gawd!!11!! We are the best team in the league. Our defense the best0rz! Bouwmeester and Phaneuf are going to tear you apart!!11! Oh yeah, Luongo is an overpaid hack! Kipper is better!!!!!!

Hence, that is why I do not argue with them. Their outlook on life is skewed. Always has been, and always will be. That said, the Bouwmeester signing easily made them better, and I'll be pissed off if they end up not tampering with what is already a great roster.

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Except our defences our pretty much even, with Vancouver's depth pushing them a little ahead.

You forget that your always overrated defence was terrible last year, lost Aucoin and Vandermeer, and improved a little by signing Bouwmeester. The Canucks on the other handsubtracted the slow and aging Ohlund from their top-10 defence last year, and added Ehrhoff, Schneider and Lukowich, two of which have Cup-winning experience compared to Jay who has never even be able to get Florida into the playoffs.

It's gonna be another slaughter come October 1.

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[quote name='cinlow wrote:


DL44']What do you expect to see outta Iggy/Ollie considering - The New Sutter Defensive System, chemistry, linemates, other factors, etc.

Did they even have chemistry last yr?

thoughts?

Sutter's system with the Devils was very effective offensively as well as defensively. We saw that with a number of their players having huge offensive years. If Pairse can have a 45g, 49a, 94p season under this system I see no reason why Iginla cannot do the same, especially since Iginla has shown the ability to produce on a defensively minding Flames team.

One of the key features of the system is meant to be puck control and fast transitions. If Sutter can get fast transitional hockey out of a largely unknown defensive group in the Devils I can only imagine he will have vastly greater results using guys like Bouwmeester, Phaneuf, Regehr and Sarich. I would also expect that Giordano, Pardy and Stralman could all find success as well as this system is not built on individual skill.

Our strength on D + Sutter's system should do more than just prevent goals against us and shut down other team's scoring. It should also turn into fast break outs of our zone, successful break ins to our opponent's zone and setting up plays that can result in goals.

It wasn't systems that got Keenan fired. It won't be systemsthat Sutter installs that have them winning.

It's all about " passengers" and it always has been. Detroit Red Wingsdon't play well because of the system. Heck it's just another versionof the trap that I"ve seen since I was a kid many years ago. It's howcommitted they are to playing it. And guys from other teams show up tothat team and just plug right in because they want to win.

Did you not watch the Keenan coached team play the trap to freakinperfection for a goodly period of time last year? Forwards were back,neutral zone clogged to the hilt, fire it out off the glass, wait formistakes. Just like Darryl had them doing in 04. Then you could see iteroding before they started losing. Comittment went downhill and add ininjuries = disaster.

Sutter does not have to work some wonders with his system. These guyshave seen every stinkin system known to man in their careers. As wassaid the other day NHL teams(heck all major sports) you see the samesystems or variations thereof over and over.

It's getting them to buy in to the system that was Keenan's downfall and Brent Sutter's challenge.

No system change is going to have Iggy come back into his own zone.Heck he knows full bloody well that he should be doing that and chosenot to. He is the captain so he can be the example though he was farfrom alone in his actions.

Whether Sutter is going to have them aggressively forecheck or sit backand play kitty bar the door isn't even relevant in today's game oryesterday's game. What is relevant is whether he can get them all to beon the same page.

I can guarantee you that in any sport you can have the most wonderfulsystems and teach them till you are blue in the face and they know theminside and out. Won't matter one iota if they aren't willing toimplement them in the game.

My hope for your season is built on "Sutter" being Sutterlike PERIOD. Reward good play and punish poor play.

There isn't one reason they can't come out with their personnel and theway they will be coached and be competitive right off the bat(otherthan Kipper stinkin out the joint). Sutter's don't have complicatedsystems. They basically just boil the game down to keep it simple andoutwork your opponent. Don't and you can park your lazy arse at the endof the bench. They moved the one dimensional types, they add a topnotch dman. They add a coach who will demand they work.

They have no excuses.

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Burrows is such an enigma that it's hard to make comparisons. I really have no idea what to expect next year.

I do like Bourque, but expecting him to not only meet, but surpass last year's pace seems a bit much to me. Maybe if he can stay healthy, and stay on the top line.

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Canucks are going to miss the playoffs.

What we're counting on is any potential drops in Kesler or Burrows'point totals being hopefully replaced with better seasons from any ofthe Raymond-Wellwood-Bernier line - who all relatively underachievedlast year. Plus Samuelsson and Shirokov being improvements over Pyattand Sundin. I see our offence as about the same as it was last year. Itwas far from the reason we lost in the playoffs last year, sopersonally I'm not concerned.

I think our greatest improvementis on defence. I loved Ohlund, but he seemed generally out of place onthe team last year, which is why many fans saw his departure coming fora long time. Our main problem in the Chicago series was breaking out from our own zone.Often, Chicago's young and fast forwards would pin us there with theirforecheck, especially guys like Ohlund. The Canucks were a puckpossession team at their best in 2009. A player like Christian Ehrhoffseems like he was created in a factory, in the way he fits Vancouver'sproblem. Improvements from Edler and Bieksa will only further this, aswell as the addition of Mathieu Schneider.

Finally, I think wewill be a better special teams squad this season. Last year our specialteams held us back, both being below-average on an above-average team.Look at the roster players Gillis acquired: Ehrhoff, Schneider andSamuelsson. All excellent on the PP. Might not seem like a big dealuntil you see Salo, Edler, Schneider, Ehrhoff, Samuelsson or Bieksablasting at your goalie. Depth, it's great.

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This about sums it up:

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows > Tanguay-Jokinen-Iginla

Raymond-Kesler-Samuelsson > Bourque-Stajan-Hagman

Torres-Malhotra-Hodgson > Glencross-Backlund-Kotalik

Oreskovich-Morrison-Hansen > Jackman-Conroy-Moss

Hamhuis-Ehrhoff = Bouwmeester-Giordano

Edler-Ballard > White-Regehr

O'Brien-Bieksa > Sarich-Pardy

Luongo-Schneider = Kiprusoff-Karlsson

Alberts, Rome, Glass, Tambellini, Rypien, Shirokov, Schroeder > Staios, Pelech, Kronwall, Backlund, Sutter, Ivanans

Manitoba Moose > Abbotsford Heat

Vancouver prospect pool > Calgary prospect pool

Mike Gillis > Darryl Sutter and Jay Feaster combined 

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An objective source, Hockey's Future ranks Vancouver 8th on the organizational depth chart, and Calgary 27th. That site may not be all that accurate, but it's hard to make up 19 spots, let alone say Calgary's pool is better than Vancouver's.

Let's just do a top-10 versus top-10 analysis—yes you could argue that that leaves out notables like Bouma, but for every Bouma Calgary has, Vancouver has a Rai, for every Seabrook, an Oberg, for every Leach, a Polasek. The fact is if you're not top-10 in terms of a team's prospects, there's little chance of saying who is better than who.

1. Mikael Backlund

2. Tim Erixon

3. Mitch Wahl

4. TJ Brodie

5. Greg Nemisz

6. Ryan Howse

7 Matt Pelech

8. Bryan Cameron

9. John Negrin

10. Leland Irving

Versus

1. Cody Hodgson

2. Cory Schneider

3. Jordan Schroeder

4. Anton Rodin

5. Kevin Connauton

6. Chris Tanev

7. Sergei Shirokov

8. Bill Sweatt

9. Peter Andersson

10. Patrick McNally

I'd subjectively rank them as such in terms of NHL impact potential (obviously there's going to be a lot of disagreement, but at least do some basic research on the Vancouver guys):

1. Hodgson

2. Backlund

3. Schneider

4. Schroeder

5. Erixon

6. Wahl

7. Rodin

8. Connauton

9. Brodie

10. Nemisz

11. Howse

12. Tanev

13. Pelech

14. Shirokov

15. Sweatt

16. Cameron

17. Negrin

18. Andersson

19. Irving

20. McNally

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I'll let my reputation speak for itself, but if you know anything about hese board its safe to say I am very familiar with prospects both Calgary and Vancovuer so I am not just talking to talk.

IN other threads I have always stated my comparison. Vancovuer has more high end potential in their prospects, but lack the depth that Calgary has especially in blueliners. I think your top 10 analysis, shows Calgary - Vancouver are pretty close. But i'm willing to bet if you kept going and did a 20 vs 20, You'd see Calgary come out on top due to the depth. Thats all i'm saying is that Calgary's prosepct depth is better, and because I see Vancouver as really only having the big 3 in terms of potential I'll take Calgary's depth.

Hockey futures does have them ranked in the top 10, but I don't put alot into hockey futures for the reasons I just talked about. HF favors 2 things, top end potential, and how close are they to the NHL. Because Calgary doens't have the top ends that HF likes, and that most of their good prospects are a few years away (mainly because they are dmen) I tend to believe HF seriously undervalues the Flames. Come one, the Leafs are ranked fairly high by HF, they are not the best resource when it comes to their team rankings. Invidual players rankings I find they are quite good, but I always disagree with their team rankings.

  

Like I said before, after a team's top-10 prospects, it gets very hard to compare player to player. However, Vancouver's 10-20 group of Prab Rai (WHLer coming off 40 goal season; looked great in rookie tourney as he has really bulked up), Adam Polasek (overlooked, two-way, big QMJHL defenceman who also played great in rookie tourney), Eddie Lack (you guys are now acquained, hehe; Markstrom's back-up in SEL); Evan Oberg (played a solid season in AHL last season along with a call-up against Calgary in the NHL; similar to Negrin), Alex Friesen (small centre from OHL with very good two-way ability; voted most hardworking player in the league) Jonathan Illhati (Finnish goalie prospect who will play in WJs this year; some had him going in the second round this past draft), Jeremy Price (fourth-rounder project from 09 developing nicely), Mario Bliznak (good young Moose role-player; competing for Canucks fourth line centre job), Aaron Volpatti (another rookie tourney stand-out; throws huge hits and scores clutch goals), and Sawyer Hannay/Taylor Ellington (one's a seventh rounder, one's a second rounder, though pretty much the same Shane O'Brien/Adam Pardy mold)... should match up well against Calgary's group. All of these guys have some NHL potential.

But, again, kudos to anyone who really compares the two groups, given most of them being complete unknowns to outside fanbases.

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who cares about arguing something as subjective and arbitrary as prospect depth?

somewhat comparable to arguing about who's the smartest kid with down syndrome... nobody really wins.

Doesn't matter till they actually make a roster does it.

A more fruitful endevor...

Which team, Flames or the Canucks, have the most home grown talent on their likely starting rosters? and by home grown talent, i mean hasn't played for another NHL club. could of drafted by another or been traded for... but actually took the leap with the flames or canucks.

Then try to correlate it to an argument of which team has superior drafting skills over the last 5 yrs or which GM or scout team is better...

The two Flames posters above me, and obviously I as well. It's a fun topic, especially in the off-season. Prospects are fun! And, ugh, you completely misused the down-syndrome analogy. The prospects I listed above all have some NHL potential, and have real talent; and I'm sure Flames fans would say the same about their 10-20 group; it's not a prettiest pig competition.

And as a whole, it's a lot more fun than your pre-ordained mini-competitions involving abstract concepts of your choosing applied to the teams. Really... your Tanguay versus Morrison attempt a few pages back was laughable trolling... one was brought in to be a first line player and the other most likely a fourth line player. This one's the same... it's unquestionable that the Canucks have been better in the homegrown talent department over the last five years... that's why the teams now sit as they are. A great example would be Boyd versus Raymond, and how Boyd was completely bumbled and Raymond has developed into a second-liner.

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[quote name='ren1 wrote:


Dusty_Foot_Philosopher']Bieksa VS Bouwmeester?

Burrows VS Iginla?

Are these two even real? Are there even any Canucks fans that think this is a balanced comparison?

Bieksa did outscore bouwmeester 43 - 42 in ten less games while playing a more physical style and holding a better plus minus, with a better contract too.

 Burrows VS Iginla, I wont touch but Daniel is impressive, in past seasons has scored 16 power play goals and 8 game winners.

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If you asked any sane person (i.e not a nux fan) Bieksa vs. Bou who would they rather have on their team, 99.99% would say Bou.

I'll take Bouwmeester over Bieksa for the olympics, cause he scores more goals makes a better first pass and big contract doesn't matter. But in the NHL Bieksa brings alot to the table at a good value. Any sane GM would appreciate the price vs performance in the comparison. It should be fun watching Bouwmeester play on a team with grit and expectation. I hope he does well in the olympics as hes usually pretty quite on team canada.

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That is what makes this a new issue and one without a clear solution. Unlike past incidents where people throw towels, rats, fruit, beer or whatever on the ice. The game is stopped, others could see the person in the standss, point him out and he could be easily and quickly ejected. In this case it could go on the whole game, as it did, before he is located. 

In this laser situation you could be sitting right beside the guy and not know. Because the goalie is in a relatively fixed position, the perpetrator could establish the dot, and flash it for a second or less at a time to do the damage. He could place it under his arm or even up his sleeve and you would not know it was happening unless you were looking for it. 

Personally I think it has been going on all season at Canuck games and you might want to re-think your record and scoring prowess if you had a Third Sedin in the stands with a laser.

The greater concern for me though is not this game BUT the upcoming Olympics, imagine the embarrassment to Canada. It would be on a Epic level and shame the whole nation in front of the world. I think there should be an immediate law passed at least in BC that anyone caught in possession of a laser at a sporting event is not only ejected but has criminal charges filed against them. 

There is absolutely no reason to have this device on you at a sporting event other than to interfere with the game or event being played and it can legally be considered an assault with a weapon . It could be used to blind athletes in a number of Olympic events...

There is no way this has been going on all season and to claim it has (without proof) is absurd. With all of the video technology we have it would have been noticed long before now. As much as i hate the sedins (solely because of the team they play for laugh.gif), their ripping it up and they don't need idiots with laser pointers to help them out.

Remember fellow flames fans- We can't make fun of classless vancouver fans (hehe) if we aren't classy ourselves.

I can't wait until the next Flames vs. Laserpointers game! roll.gif

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Actually, most of us Edmontonians are fairly happy at the moment; As of today the Oilers broke a franchise record for most consecutive road wins (with five) after going 5 for 5 on their recent road trip. And, as a nice added bonus, the Oilers are on the biggest winning streak of the entire league at the moment.

Plus, Penner's play is fantastic this season... Currently he has 18 goals, 36 points, in 32 games. The guy is on pace for a solid 46 goals, and 92 points... which quite frankly, is ridiculous. At this rate, i would say he has a shot at the Olympics. Hell, the guy leads all canadians (well, tied with Bouwmeester) in at 13.

That being said, i suppose it is hard to not be riding your high horse after your team overcomes a 3 goal deficit and wins... let alone when you break a franchise record like that.

.... Now all we need is Hemsky.

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