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Discussion & Debate Thread: Flames and Canucks

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Yeah, maybe not... but i don't think there is a team in the league that would not be better by adding a point per game player (which, when he got injured, he was) to the line up.

This being said, i hope the Oilers figure out what they are going to do quickly... If we are going to make the playoffs, beautiful... If not then i would like Taylor Hall, or maybe that Kabanov fellow.

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Butcher? cuz of the pedigree? and he's way bigger.

I'll bet my left nut that Backlund's career will be way better then Butcher's.

Now that Backlund gets to play with Jaffray anyways :P.

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All emotional attachment/undeserved hatred aside, would Calgary fans trade Jarome Iginla for both the Sedins?

   Is Vancouver throwing in a first rounder, Edler and Rights to Virtual Sami Salo?

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


Demonous_Xodus wrote:

Dusty_Foot_Philosopher']All emotional attachment/undeserved hatred aside, would Calgary fans trade Jarome Iginla for both the Sedins?

   Is Vancouver throwing in a first rounder, Edler and Rights to Virtual Sami Salo?
You can't trade him if he is retired.

We already said he couldn't retire. Henceforth I demand the rights to Virtual Sami Salo xD.

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But again, 100%

Sutter became GM during the 04 Season, thus begininng our streak of 5 consecutive playoff appearances. Sutter is also 100% at making the playoffs.

You sir, got pwnt.

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[quote name='Hockey_Canada1 wrote:


littlereddevil wrote:

ren1 wrote:

Hockey_Canada1']shall we compare defensive cores now?
:lol:

For sure!

Ours is still the best in the league, and as an added bonus it doesn't bring us $3 million over the cap.

Exactly. Gillis
hasn't
been able to manage the cap efficiently, and look what he has.

An inconsistent defensemen who is way over-payed (O'Brien), another inconsistent defensemen who plays poorly in his own end (Ehrhoff, who was

-12 last season), two cripples who are bound to get injured (Schneider and Salo), a bunch of pylons (Rome and Nycholat), another player who

*gasp* plays poorly in his own end (Bieksa, who was -4 last season), an overrated shutdown defenseman (Mitchell, who according to Canucks fans

should be on Team Canada) and mabye two proven NHL defensemen (Lukowich and Edler).....

In other words Gillis has overspent on defense.

So now we're overpaying for our defense..... puhhleezze!

  
LOL. I can play the same game.

Overpaid, overrated = Bouwmeester, Phanuef., Regehr

pylon = Sarich, Pardy

inconsistent, can't play in his own end = Giordano

aren't I clever?

But let's analyze who can't manage the cap effectively. The GM who is over the cap in August and has over a month to sort it out with 9 NHL defencemen or a GM who's team is forced to play with 17 players in the most crucial point in the season because of cap issues.

Regehr is about 10x better then Mitchell and only makes .5M more, and Bouwmeester is only overrated to you guys because even if you all tried so hard, we're the ones who got him in the end. Phaneuf might be slightly overpaid, but he has a lot of potential.

Sarich and Pardy are better defensively then 7/9 of your defensemen, so if they're pylons then 7/9 of your defensemen are cement blocks.

  

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[quote name='hkiitay wrote:


Hockey_Canada1 wrote:

littlereddevil wrote:

ren1 wrote:

Hockey_Canada1']shall we compare defensive cores now?
:lol:

For sure!

Ours is still the best in the league, and as an added bonus it doesn't bring us $3 million over the cap.

Exactly. Gillis
hasn't
been able to manage the cap efficiently, and look what he has.

An inconsistent defensemen who is way over-payed (O'Brien), another inconsistent defensemen who plays poorly in his own end (Ehrhoff, who was

-12 last season), two cripples who are bound to get injured (Schneider and Salo), a bunch of pylons (Rome and Nycholat), another player who

*gasp* plays poorly in his own end (Bieksa, who was -4 last season), an overrated shutdown defenseman (Mitchell, who according to Canucks fans

should be on Team Canada) and mabye two proven NHL defensemen (Lukowich and Edler).....

In other words Gillis has overspent on defense.

So now we're overpaying for our defense..... puhhleezze!

  
LOL. I can play the same game.

Overpaid, overrated = Bouwmeester, Phanuef., Regehr

pylon = Sarich, Pardy

inconsistent, can't play in his own end = Giordano

aren't I clever?

But let's analyze who can't manage the cap effectively. The GM who is over the cap in August and has over a month to sort it out with 9 NHL defencemen or a GM who's team is forced to play with 17 players in the most crucial point in the season because of cap issues.

you have no proof.  I know phaneuf had a bad season--one bad season--but show me a nux defender who was nominated for the norris trophy--oh, right, there isn't one.

They also don't have a Vezina Winner, a Rocket Richard Trophy Winner, etc. etc.

  

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[quote name='TheAce wrote:


littlereddevil wrote:

TheAce']I dont think too many people will argue how good Jay-Bo is but if we take a look at some stats its interesting. Based on the last 2 full seasons ( im taking out the injury plagued year for Bieksa. It was a freak accident, he isnt a soft player like Salo)

Bouwmeeter  - 06/07  - 12 goals / 30 assists 42 points

                        08/09 -  15 goals/ 27 assists 42 points

Bieksa -  06/07 - 12 goals/ 30 assists 42 points

               08/09 - 11 goals/32 assists 43 points

Career wise Jay-Bo is minus 27 and Bieksa is minus 15. Now I know that Jay played on a bad team his whole career but he did have a year with +23 and he also played in front of Luongo . Jay has also led all D-men in ice time the last few years so it will be interesting to see how playing 6 mins less a game will affect him. It could be positive or it could lower his point total because he wont have the same amount of chances playing less. Bieksa has a cap hit of 3.75 mil where as Bouwmeester is close to 7 mil. Again,
its easy to concede that Bouwmesster is the better player
but when you take in account the salary differences that one is getting paid almost double than the other, its not that bad.

I don't see how Bouwmeester is equal to Bieksa. I'm sorry, but did Bieksa's Team Canada invitation get lost in the mail?

Bouwmeester had the top TOI per game last year, playing against the likes of Lecavalier, St. Louis, Staal, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Malkin, Crosby, etc.

Bouwmeester is regarded as one of the best two-way defensemen in the league today. He can score goals and he can keep the puck out of his own end very well.

Meanwhile, Bieksa is frankly just an offensive defenseman who seems to turnover the puck a lot (comparable to Phaneuf last season). Bieksa is currently in his prime, Bouwmeester isn't (he's only 25). 

Stats aren't everything for a defenseman, otherwise someone like Regehr would be regarded as overrated because  he doesn't score.

Did i say they were equal?  Did you not read where I wrote that its ' easy to concede that Bouwmeester is the better player' ?

Last season Bieksa had 55 giveaways and Bouwmeester had 51. Bieksa had 29 takeaways compared to Bouwmeester's 27 so I dont think your analysis is correct. Also, I wouldnt say a career minus 27 screams out defensive god. Alot of star defenseman play against top lines and are in the +.  Last season 3 of florida's fulltime defenseman finished in the plus( Boyton, Skrastins and Ballard) while 3 finished in the minus ( Mccabe, Bouwmeester and Cullimore). I can agree that Jay is better defensively but there offense is very similar and it will be interesting to see how many points Jay will put up now that he wont be playing 29 mins a game. If we werent in a cap world and a GM was given the choice it would probably be %99 in favour of Bouwmeester. The fact we live in a cap world though and Bieksa is almost 1/2 the price and is comparable in stats, is why Canuck fans are happy with who we have.

 

   Isn't it because your team went after Bouwmeester at the deadline and never got him, so you're all uberpissed and angry at Jbo that Kevin Bieksa is now "better".

But anyways, I'm not involving myself in any arguements anymore until the season starts.

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[quote name='Dusty_Foot_Philosopher wrote:


Hiphopopotamus']However Luongo is the highest paid goalie,

Once again, you're wrong.

Hes wrong...and right.

TOP 5 HIGHEST PAID GOALTENDERS - SALARY CAP HIT

1. Henrik Lundqvist NYR 27 Years Old - 6.875M(3 Vezina Nominations)

2. Roberto Luongo VAN 30 Years Old- 6.75M(2 Vezina Nominations)

3. Ryan Miller BUF 28 Years Old - 6.25M(No Vezina Nominations)

T4. Niklas Backstrom MIN 31 Years Old - 6M(One Vezina Nomination)

T4. Jean-Sebastien Giguere ANA 32 Years Old - 6M(No Vezina Nomination)

6. Miikka Kiprusoff CGY 32 Years Old - 5.833M(One Vezina Victory)

TOP 5 HIGHEST PAID GOALTENDERS - ACTUAL SALARY

1. Roberto Luongo VAN 30 Years Old - 7.5M(2 Vezina Nominations)

2. Miikka Kiprusoff CGY 32 Years Old - 7M(One Vezina Victory)

3. Henrik Lundqvist NYR 27 Years Old - 6.875M(3 Vezina Nominations)

4. Ryan Miller BUF 28 Years Old - 6.25M(No Vezina Nominations)

T5. Niklas Backstrom MIN 31 Years Old - 6M(One Vezina Nomination)

T5. Jean-Sebastien Giguere ANA 32 Years Old - 6M(No Vezina Nomination)

So yeah. Luongo is 2nd in Cap Hit, 1st in Actual Salary. He is half wrong, half right.

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[quote name='Dusty_Foot_Philosopher wrote:


Hiphopopotamus']However Luongo is the highest paid goalie,

Once again, you're wrong.

Hes wrong...and right.

TOP 5 HIGHEST PAID GOALTENDERS - SALARY CAP HIT

1. Henrik Lundqvist NYR 27 Years Old - 6.875M(3 Vezina Nominations)

2. Roberto Luongo VAN 30 Years Old- 6.75M(2 Vezina Nominations)

3. Ryan Miller BUF 28 Years Old - 6.25M(No Vezina Nominations)

T4. Niklas Backstrom MIN 31 Years Old - 6M(One Vezina Nomination)

T4. Jean-Sebastien Giguere ANA 32 Years Old - 6M(No Vezina Nomination)

6. Miikka Kiprusoff CGY 32 Years Old - 5.833M(One Vezina Victory)

TOP 5 HIGHEST PAID GOALTENDERS - ACTUAL SALARY

1. Roberto Luongo VAN 30 Years Old - 7.5M(2 Vezina Nominations)

2. Miikka Kiprusoff CGY 32 Years Old - 7M(One Vezina Victory)

3. Henrik Lundqvist NYR 27 Years Old - 6.875M(3 Vezina Nominations)

4. Ryan Miller BUF 28 Years Old - 6.25M(No Vezina Nominations)

T5. Niklas Backstrom MIN 31 Years Old - 6M(One Vezina Nomination)

T5. Jean-Sebastien Giguere ANA 32 Years Old - 6M(No Vezina Nomination)

So yeah. Luongo is 2nd in Cap Hit, 1st in Actual Salary. He is half wrong, half right.

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And since we're talking salaries:

TOP 7 TEAMS PAYING FOR DEFENSE:

Team - Cash Spent - Top 4

1. Toronto Maple Leafs - 25.232M - M.Komisarek, T.Kaberle, F.Beauchemin, G.Exelby
2. Philadelphia Flyers - 24.426M - C.Pronger, K.Timonen, B.Coburn, R.Jones
3. Detroit Red Wings - 23.483M - N.Lidstrom, B.Rafalski, N.Kronvall, B.Stuart
4. Edmonton Oilers - 22.850M - S.Souray, L.Visnovzky, T.Gilbert, D.Grebeshkov
5. Calgary Flames - 22.392M - R.Regehr, J.Bouwmeester, D.Phaneuf, C.Sarich
6. Colorado Avalanche - 21.500M - S.Hannan, J.Liles, R.Salei, T.Preissing
7. Vancouver Canucks - 21.292M - K.Bieksa, W.Mitchell, C.Ehrhoff, A.Edler

So yeah, basically. If we're overpaid, so are you gents.

P.S: Out of all those Top 4s, ours is the best.

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NHLnumbers gives me everybody currently with the club:

CALGARY FLAMES:

Jay Bouwmeester 6.68

Dion Phaneuf 6.5

Robyn Regehr 4.02

Cory Sarich 3.6

Mark Giordano .892

Adam Pardy .700

22.392

VANCOUVER CANUCKS:

Kevin Bieksa 3.75

Sami Salo 3.5

Willie Mitchell 3.5

Alexander Edler 3.25

Christian Ehrhoff 3.1

Shane O'Brien 1.6

Brad Lukowich 1.567

Aaron Rome .525

Lawrence Nycholat .500

21.292

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I'm going to make an impersonation on all of you, just for the sake of it:

'Nucks Troll: OMG!!!111 SCHNEIDER AND EHRHOFF, %%%# YEAH!

'Flames Fan: Well, I guess thats good.

Not so smart Flames Fan: LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL NUCKS SUCK, PLAN DUH PA-RADE.

Oilers Troll: I want a parade...

'Nucks Troll: OMG!1111 HOW CULD U SAY DAT? I HATE YOU; SUTTER SUCKS! KIPPER SUCKS! JBO SUCKS! *BLAH BLAH BLAH*

Not so smart Flames Fan: OMG!!!!11 R U SRS? LIKE, RELLY SRS? OMG GILLS SUCKS! LU SUCKS! IGGY ROCKS!! * blah blah blah*

Seriously, guys. Cut it the %%%# out.

Lets just all admit it. Our defense kicks theirs in the %+%, and as far as I'm concerned, their offense has a slight edge over ours. Luongo and Kipper I still have to see during the season.

But, seriously. Cut it out, you all are started to sound really bad.

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[quote name='yukonwolf wrote:


Demonous_Xodus']I'm going to make an impersonation on all of you, just for the sake of it:

'Nucks Troll: OMG!!!111 SCHNEIDER AND EHRHOFF, %%%# YEAH!

'Flames Fan: Well, I guess thats good.

Not so smart Flames Fan: LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL NUCKS SUCK, PLAN DUH PA-RADE.

Oilers Troll: I want a parade...

'Nucks Troll: OMG!1111 HOW CULD U SAY DAT? I HATE YOU; SUTTER SUCKS! KIPPER SUCKS! JBO SUCKS! *BLAH BLAH BLAH*

Not so smart Flames Fan: OMG!!!!11 R U SRS? LIKE, RELLY SRS? OMG GILLS SUCKS! LU SUCKS! IGGY ROCKS!! * blah blah blah*

Seriously, guys. Cut it the %%%# out.

Lets just all admit it. Our defense kicks theirs in the %+%, and as far as I'm concerned, their offense has a slight edge over ours. Luongo and Kipper I still have to see during the season.

But, seriously. Cut it out, you all are started to sound really bad.

For someone being a Tyrant of Positivity that was pretty negative there Dx.  I feel like I just got yelled at by my Dad, and that hasn't happened in over 20 years.mellow.gif

Well, I'm mostly positive about the Flames. But hell, we have to keep our integrity on this forum, and theres just a lot of stupid arguements and just mindless crap going on. Arguement is good, but seriously guys, cut the stupidity out. I thought we were the smart ones. And Yukon, you might be the Smart Flames Fan xD.

  

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Oh wow. Am I really going to have to do this:

Regehr vs Mitchell:

Regehr(4.02M, 29 Years Old)[Drafted 19th Overall, 1999 by Colorado] = 666 Games; 25-104-129(750 shots on net) and is a +29 career with 669 Penalty Minutes. Sportsnet Career Potential: Defensive Stalwart. He is 3-12-15 with a +9 and 28 PIM in 41 Playoff Games.

Mitchell(3.5M, 32 Years Old)[Drafted 199th, 1996 by New Jersey] = 538 Games, 15-92-107(438 shots on net) and is a +69 career with 573 Penalty Minutes. Sportnset says: Shutdown D-Man. He is 1-6-7 in the playoffs with a +1 and 50 PIM in 45 Playoff Games.

Regehr Wins. 1-0 Flames

Bouwmeester vs Bieksa

Bouwmeester(6.68M, 25 Years Old)[Drafted 3rd overall, 2002 by Florida] = 471 Games; 53-150-203 and is -27 with 329 PIM. Sportsnet says: No.1 Defenseman. He has not playoff stats.

Bieksa(3.75M, 28 Years Old)[Drafted 151st Overall, 2001 by Vancouver] = 226 Games; 25-78-103 with a -15 and 398 PIM. Sportsnet says: Top 4 D-Man. He is 0-5-0 in the playoffs, with a +2 and 90 PIM in 27 Playoff Games.

Bouwmeester wins. 2-0 Flames

Phaneuf vs. Ehrhoff

Phaneuf(6.5M, 24 Years Old)[Drafted 9th Overall, 2003 by Calgary] = 323 Games; 65-141-206 with a +16 and 473 PIM. Sportsnet says: Top pairing defenseman with tremendous offensive acumen. He is 5-7-12 with a -12 and 22 PIM in 25 Playoff Games.

Ehrhoff(3.1M, 27 Years Old)[Drafted 106th Overall, 2001 by San Jose] = 341 Games; 25-107-132 with a +19 and 244 PIM. Sportsnet says: Top Four Defenseman. He is 2-13-15 with a +2 and 40 PIM in 38 Playoff Games.

Phaneuf Wins(o.o). 3-0 Flames.

Anything else?

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I also thought it was funny that our Top 3 were all drafted 3, 9, 19 whilst the Canucks Top 3 were drafted 106th, 151st, 199th.

Also. That ends that. And, of course, for argument's sake:

Miikka Kiprusoff(5.833M, 32 Years Old) = 204-125-56 with a 2.46 GAA and a .912 SVP. He has 30 shutouts. He is 25-28 in the playoffs, with a 2.32 GAA and .921 SVP + 6 shutouts in 56 Playoff Games. Has won the Vezina/Jennings Trophies.

Roberto Luongo(6.75M, 30 Years Old) = 230-232-82 with a 2.57 GAA and a .919 SVP. He has 47 shutouts. He is 11-11 in the playoffs, with a 2.09 GAA and a .930 SVP with one shutout. He has been nominated for the Vezina, Pearson and Hart, but has won nothing.

So basically. Kipper has won trophies, has a better GAA and is 79 games over .500. Luongo has won trophies, has a better SVP and is 2 games below .500.

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Top 7: Name - Hits - Blocks - Giveaways/Takeaways

D. Phaneuf - 159(20th) - 86

J. Bouwmeester - 115(48th) - 128

R.Regehr - 122(42nd) - 89

C.Sarich - 134(32nd) - 54

A.Pardy - 77 - 44

M.Giordano - 55 - 39

A.Stralman - 37 - 37

TOTAL : 699 - 477

Top 7 Nucks:

S.Salo - 46 - 66

K.Bieksa - 119 - 60

C.Ehrhoff - 79 - 90

A.Edler - 102 - 93

W.Mitchell - 82 - 125

M.Schneider - 71 - 118

B.Lukowich - 117(46th) - 82

TOTAL: 616 - 634

Flames win at hitting. 'Nucks win at protecting their goalie with their bodies.

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^ The sad part is how they all say that Regehr's past his prime and has lost a step over Mitchell(even though, you know, Regehr's 28 and Mitchell's 3 years older...and Regehr has better career stats and all).

And the Canucks Board makes me laugh xD.

"OURDEFENSE CAN RACK UP 40 POINTS EACH, LOLOLOLOLOLOL."

"LUNGO IS BETTUR DEN KIPPUR!!11"

"C'mon guys, stop being homers".

"WE'LL SMOKE THEM LOLOLOLOLOLOL"

... I guess we'll have to see October 1st.

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[quote name='Keys wrote:


iggygiggy wrote:

ren1 wrote:

Keys']Not to sound like a Vancouver fan or anything

Sorry, but you really do.
No kidding... sounds like a fanboy posing as a flames fan. 

I'm a hockey fan. Meaning unlike yourself, I can recognize talent in any roster.  If you want to centre on that, fine. I meant what I said in the second sentence too, I would rather be a Vancouver fan then to listen to your drivel. I am a "fanboy" as much as you are "intelligent".

Although I guess it's true, ignorance is bliss, and you are just a complete idiot. roll.gif

I finally understand Lunatik, although I am nowhere near his level.

Difference, Lunatik would never "rather cheer for the Canucks then listen to someone's drivel".

You dirty Canucks Lover.

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i think this is the first time since gm 10 that the teams have the same number of games....

25 games in...

Teams Equal in scoring and goals against.

Cal with more Points, wins, better PK, save percentage, plus/minus, hits

Vancouver with better PP, faceoffs, SoG/SoGA, disicipline, shootouts, takeaway/giveaway ratio

Love how the Canucks are trending...

The Flames just win... they just are finding ways of winning and getting points in the bank.

And in the end, thats all that matters. Get over it.

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


iggygiggy wrote:

iggygiggy']Seriously the Canucks are overrated. Last year you had Kesler and Burrows going for you along with the Sedins, but I think that was all a one year hit wonder thing, their production will tail off this season especially for Burrows. This team is all Sedins and Luongo, shut down the Sedins and you got nothing. As for Luongo who knows he can be stellar but he can horrible too. I think the Canucks defence is pretty weak compared to the Flames.

Quote me on this, Canucks will be pushing for the 8th spot but in the end will falter and miss the playoffs. All these media types are overrating the Canucks seriously there is nothing on that team that screams 1st or stanley cup champs, they seem average to me and thats not going to cut it.

Cheers.

So I was nicely tortured and called an idiot for pointing out the obvious... now do you believe me? the canucks will be pushing for the final playoff spot and I'm sorry i still think their goin to miss the playoffs...

I wrote this 3 months its on PAGE 21 if you canuckers wanna see...

It's easy to say Kesler was a one hit wonder, especially when he is on pace to destroy his offensive breakout year from last season. If he played for the Flames, he would be second on the team in scoring. Burrows is also on pace to eclipse his point totals from last year, though only by 3 points. Shut down the Sedins and we got nothing? While I would disagree, it doesn't really matter because they rarely get shutdown. And I think Henrik put away the talk that he can't play without his brother. The Canucks have also been a higher scoring team than the Flames so far, even without Daniel for over a month. If you want to look at goal production beyond each teams top two and the Canucks (67) are still higher than the Flames (59). So I would argue if you shutdown Iginla and Bourque, the Flames have less.

Having said all that, Calgary have been finding ways to win while the Canucks have not.

*cough* Better goalie, better Defense, more heart, better coach, better GM. *cough*

  

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