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Discussion & Debate Thread: Flames and Canucks

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I was just LOL'ing by the way, guys.

Obviously, not all Canuck fans are laser-painting butt-pimples.  Though, even my Canuck friends turn into D-Bags during Flames/Nucks games.  Got to the point where I refused to talk to them on gameday. 

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Can anyone explain to me why we are still posting in this thread and feeding this idiot troll?

People, cut the crap, already.

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In terms of Hodgson vs Backlund this is the way I see it.

I think point wise, they will be simlar. I think both will hover around PPG averages with Backlund likely scoring more goals. However, Hodgson will be the more complete player. I don't see Backlund being much of a contribtuter in PK and in the dressin room via a leadership perspective like Hodgson. But I do think that other than the intangibles, they arn't that different.

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I like Langkow, but im not sure id say he's hands down better than Kesler. Lanks has put up better numbers the last couple years but he has also been playing on the top 2 lines and pp time. Kesler was only bumped up to the second line after the all star break and had been used primarely as a checker. As a checker he has established himself as one of the better 2 way forwards in the game. It should be interesting to see what he can do in a full season playing on the top 2.

As for the rest of your assessment I tend to agree. I dont think Calgary will lose much scoring. Cammy is gone but I think Iginla will get back to the mid 40's in goals. Joker will score 25-30 , Lanks - 20-25 , Bourque - 15-25. I cant think of too many teams that have 6 superstar forwards as there top 6.

Phaneuf should have a better year just on the fact he wont have to play 26-30 mins every game. I wouldnt say Jay-Bo is dominant in any single area but he is well rounded and fairly solid. If both he and Dion can average 23 - 25 mins a game, they should both benefit. Having Giordano back will be key as well..... I think he is one of the more underrated players in the league.

Until Vancouver gets all the peices together its hard to predict who will have the better team. It sounds like we are still looking for a puck moving D-man like Zubov or Kaberle which would help big time. Even though Sundin didnt live up to expectations last year I still say he makes this team better. Having him back would give us 3 solid lines and a very pesky 4th.

I agree with much of this. Langkow/Keslser is a wash NOW, but give it a season or two Kesler will be the better player. I've been a Kesler fan for a few years now. Definetly wouldn't say Langkow is a better player.

I also think the whole "Calgary lost a bunhc of scoring" is very overblown.Calgary would have finished wiht a top 5 offence had it not been for the injuries down the stretch. So I think alot of people are looking at the end of the year and saying, ok they had a good (but not great) offence, and we expect them to lose some so now they are really only avg.

When in reality they just went from being a great offence, to just being good. I don't think the Flames are going to have trouble scoring 230-240 goals and that should put them right around 10th again.

Vancovuer needs to make a couple of deals I think. I don't think they are about as good as they were last year, and I would argue the Flames have improved. I also know Vancovuer isn't done yet and what they can manage to pull of in a trade is going to lead to this argument carrying over for a while.

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That's strange that you can play in the NHL @ 19, but not the AHL..

its done on purpose. They don't want the CHL (Canadian Hockey League) to lose their edge. If they dropped the age to 19, all the dub would be is a league that developed them up to the draft and then lost all their best players. Bad for business on the CHL and really NHL side as it doesn't leave options. Keeps the CHL as a true development league.

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Your comparisons are way off.

why wouldn't you compare shut-downn vs. shut-down, ect...?

Bouwmeester vs. Edler

Phanuef vs. Bieksa

Regeher vs. Mitchell

Sarich vs. Ehrhoff

Giordanno vs. Schneider

Pardy vs. O'Brien

Stralman vs. Lukowich

in which case...

Bouwmeester >/= Edler

Phanuef > Bieksa

Regeher > Mitchell

Sarich < Ehrhoff

Giordanno < Schneider

Pardy < O'Brien

Stralman < Lukowich

No offence. But once I saw this I ignored the rest.

To even suggest, even in some way, that Edler is in the same leage as JBow is either ridiculous or a huge homer statement. I even like Edler as a player but he is no where near the capability of JayBo.

  

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I don't want any of our players playing in the Olympics. Just another injury concern; I'd much rather have them get the two weeks off, especially during our epic road swing. For the record though, the Canucks will very likely be sending the most players to the Olympics of all the Northwest teams.

Ehrhoff was a -12 for the record - his first minus season. Maybe that came from playing on the Sharks' third pairing. However, he was without a doubt their best defenceman during the playoffs, garnering about 25 minutes per night. People are severely underrating his defensive game based on one bad year of .

We are never going to match picking up Bouwmeester. So why are you trying to give off the impression we are? But if you really want to compare: Ehrhoff is cheaper. That's one thing. By about half. I think he's faster too, but I've never seen them play each other. He's also better on the PP I think. Other than that, Bouwmeester can take the rest and deservedly so.

Thats a pretty big stretch. Sure, Erhoff is a good skater, but your suggesting that he is faster than one of the fastest players (let alone dmen) in the entire league?

I think your seriously overrating Erhoff and underrating Jaybo.  Better on the PP?

He had 5 more PP points than Jaybo last season. JayBo had 4 more goals. Jaybo had about an extra minutes per game of PP time, but he was with the #24 ranked PP. Erhoff barely beat Jaybo in production while being reatured on the number 1 PP in the NHL. Operated at more than 3-4% better than the Panthers.

Season before. Jaybo had 9 more PPpoints and 3 more PP goals. That year SJ and FL were even in PP prodcutiong and again Jaybo held an edge in ice time on PP. Again, best case scenario you could say they are similar in terms of PP ability, but Jaybo has a much better socring touch.

Its not just one bad year defensivly. It just showed up because they asked more out of him and changed their system. Wilson's system is far more forgiving to players like Ehroff (boom/bust style players who take risks).He's never been that great defensivly. Your also putting way too much into ice time. So Ehroof was easily their best dman becuase he played the most? He had zero points and was a minus two.I'm pretty sure Dan Boyle, who had 4 points in 6 games was far and far away SJs best dman in the playoffs.

 Either way its not something I would bring up that much. SJ was awful top to bottom in the playoffs. If thats as good as Ehroff can play, Van fans shoudln't be that excited.

  

But you guys are right about Mitchell. Hardly and Flames fan give him enough credit. While I don't beleive he garners Olympic Team consideration, he is a very good shutdown dman, who is a huge reason Iginla doesn't manage much against the Canucks.

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It wasn't systems that got Keenan fired. It won't be systems that Sutter installs that have them winning.

It's all about " passengers" and it always has been. Detroit Red Wings don't play well because of the system. Heck it's just another version of the trap that I"ve seen since I was a kid many years ago. It's how committed they are to playing it. And guys from other teams show up to that team and just plug right in because they want to win.

Did you not watch the Keenan coached team play the trap to freakin perfection for a goodly period of time last year? Forwards were back, neutral zone clogged to the hilt, fire it out off the glass, wait for mistakes. Just like Darryl had them doing in 04. Then you could see it eroding before they started losing. Comittment went downhill and add in injuries = disaster.

Sutter does not have to work some wonders with his system. These guys have seen every stinkin system known to man in their careers. As was said the other day NHL teams(heck all major sports) you see the same systems or variations thereof over and over.

It's getting them to buy in to the system that was Keenan's downfall and Brent Sutter's challenge.

No system change is going to have Iggy come back into his own zone. Heck he knows full bloody well that he should be doing that and chose not to. He is the captain so he can be the example though he was far from alone in his actions.

Whether Sutter is going to have them aggressively forecheck or sit back and play kitty bar the door isn't even relevant in today's game or yesterday's game. What is relevant is whether he can get them all to be on the same page.

I can guarantee you that in any sport you can have the most wonderful systems and teach them till you are blue in the face and they know them inside and out. Won't matter one iota if they aren't willing to implement them in the game.

My hope for your season is built on "Sutter" being Sutterlike PERIOD. Reward good play and punish poor play.

There isn't one reason they can't come out with their personnel and the way they will be coached and be competitive right off the bat(other than Kipper stinkin out the joint). Sutter's don't have complicated systems. They basically just boil the game down to keep it simple and outwork your opponent. Don't and you can park your lazy arse at the end of the bench. They moved the one dimensional types, they add a top notch dman. They add a coach who will demand they work.

They have no excuses.

I think your half right. I think systems matter more than your suggesting. I mean is it a suprise to you that the final four teams left at the end of the season all played a similar system and team that were eliminated early where alot of the older school systems? They matter, but I also think your right in that too mnay people are overplaying Brent Sutter coming in here with a "system". 

 Your also right that the "system" was not what was wrong last year it was players buying into it and coaches holding them accountable. The Flames were one of the best teams in the NHL during the middle 3rd of the season becuase they were accountable and executed the system. However, Keenan's lack of accountability slipped in. Your right, Ignila should have known to backcheck, but its also human nature for us to seek a more pleasurable experience and that for about 80-90% of hockey players is scoring goals. So your right on that fact that its about accountability not a new system.

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YOu don't have to sacrifice one of the facets. Detroit, SJ and chicago don't. They are all good at offence, defence, and transition. Pittsburg also. HOwever, I do agree that there are too many people that suddenly think offensive numbers are going to improve under Sutter. Overal play will, but for most of the players talked about, Bourque, Glencross, Moss etc, a great season woudl simply be matching last years totals. The improved offence should come from dissapointing players having bounce back seasons, not the supplementary players improving.

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With this ongoing discussion about how much Sutter's System is going to overhaul the Flames this yr...

I must ask...

Which NHL coach has the better 'System'?

Alain V or Brent S ?

Both are supposed defensive specialists... one is obviously a lot more experienced at the NHL level, the other a lot of success at the World Jrs.

Well... AV with a lot more NHL experience.

Sutter still has potential going into his 3rd season as a coach. This will definitely be a defining yr year for the coach's systeme considering the personnel his brother has given him.

He's coming off 3 disappointing WHL seasons... and 2 decent yrs with the Devils, but with no post-season success...

took a 100+pt division winning team and left them a 100pt division winning team. But he's still got the shine of the Gold medals to keep his mystique fresh.

Sutter has 2 world junior golds, and a memorial cup...

AV, is a 2 time Jack Adams nominee.... one time winner.

Has twice taken a Vancouver team predicted to miss the playoffs preseason to division titles... winning a round each yr.

Let's see if Sutter can finally be the coach that makes the flames actually live up to pre season expectations... a team that i don't think has had an over achieving team since the '04 run (correct me if i'm wrong on that).

IMO, Sutter's system. I think the New NHL you have to be aggressive and control the puck/time of pocession. YOu can't sit back and protect leads. AV still does that too much. I know he amended it last year and they are playing more open in the first part of games, but they still are too passive too often IMO. Tahts why Chicago beat you guys. Vancouver sat back trying to protect a lead, softended the forecheck and Chicago used their speed to force bad penalties. I don't think AV's system is open enough to win in today's NHL. Defensive hockey starts with offence now.

Having said that, I think you guys (yourself and Don) are right to question how effective Sutter's system is going to be becuase quite frankily your dealing with alot of people that don't quite understand the impact of a system. Technically, the system isn't changing. I expect Sutter to employ the same system Keenan did. Puck pursuit. Really coaching style should be the word used not systems. I prefered Keenan's system to AVs last year, but I do like AVs coaching style. He stressed the small details you need to be held accounability and execute on a consistant basis. I think when the Flames were healthy and executing their system, they were better than the Canucks. However, the Canucks were far more consistant. Thats a testiment to AV. So thats what I think its comes down to. Its not systems, its coaching style. Sutter will stress the finer points that Keenan didn't and to me defense is just about small points. Where is your zone, what side of the puck you are on, where is your man etc etc etc. Those are small details that gets overlooked if your coach is a big picture type of guy. Will that sacrifice some offence, sure. Some will. But just not that much, and I also think the Flames have quite a bit of offence they could give back. Untill they injuries they were top 3 in the league. I kow they finished 7th, but had they had been healthy, they probably finish top 4 or 5. Falling back 3 or 4 spots (which I think is about 20 plus goals) is really not that big a deal.

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[quote name='DL44 wrote:


cross16 wrote:

DL44']With this ongoing discussion about how much Sutter's System is going to overhaul the Flames this yr...

I must ask...

Which NHL coach has the better 'System'?

Alain V or Brent S ?

Both are supposed defensive specialists... one is obviously a lot more experienced at the NHL level, the other a lot of success at the World Jrs.

Well... AV with a lot more NHL experience.

Sutter still has potential going into his 3rd season as a coach. This will definitely be a defining yr year for the coach's systeme considering the personnel his brother has given him.

He's coming off 3 disappointing WHL seasons... and 2 decent yrs with the Devils, but with no post-season success...

took a 100+pt division winning team and left them a 100pt division winning team. But he's still got the shine of the Gold medals to keep his mystique fresh.

Sutter has 2 world junior golds, and a memorial cup...

AV, is a 2 time Jack Adams nominee.... one time winner.

Has twice taken a Vancouver team predicted to miss the playoffs preseason to division titles... winning a round each yr.

Let's see if Sutter can finally be the coach that makes the flames actually live up to pre season expectations... a team that i don't think has had an over achieving team since the '04 run (correct me if i'm wrong on that).

IMO, Sutter's system. I think the New NHL you have to be aggressive and control the puck/time of pocession. YOu can't sit back and protect leads. AV still does that too much. I know he amended it last year and they are playing more open in the first part of games, but they still are too passive too often IMO. Tahts why Chicago beat you guys. Vancouver sat back trying to protect a lead, softended the forecheck and Chicago used their speed to force bad penalties. I don't think AV's system is open enough to win in today's NHL. Defensive hockey starts with offence now.

Having said that, I think you guys (yourself and Don) are right to question how effective Sutter's system is going to be becuase quite frankily your dealing with alot of people that don't quite understand the impact of a system. Technically, the system isn't changing. I expect Sutter to employ the same system Keenan did. Puck pursuit. Really coaching style should be the word used not systems. I prefered Keenan's system to AVs last year, but I do like AVs coaching style. He stressed the small details you need to be held accounability and execute on a consistant basis. I think when the Flames were healthy and executing their system, they were better than the Canucks. However, the Canucks were far more consistant. Thats a testiment to AV. So thats what I think its comes down to. Its not systems, its coaching style. Sutter will stress the finer points that Keenan didn't and to me defense is just about small points. Where is your zone, what side of the puck you are on, where is your man etc etc etc. Those are small details that gets overlooked if your coach is a big picture type of guy. Will that sacrifice some offence, sure. Some will. But just not that much, and I also think the Flames have quite a bit of offence they could give back. Untill they injuries they were top 3 in the league. I kow they finished 7th, but had they had been healthy, they probably finish top 4 or 5. Falling back 3 or 4 spots (which I think is about 20 plus goals) is really not that big a deal.

Probably one of the most insightful posts in this thread.. nice job cross...

I'm sick of how the term "system" or " new system" has been thrown around here... 
translation -  new coach paying  more attention to defensive detail than the last guy.

It's my contention that what's been wrong with the flames over the last few yrs hasn't been the coaches, it's been in the locker room.  There was a significant change in the personality of the club after the blue collar run in '04...
I think the GM Sutter should be on the hot seat this yr.
IF Coach Sutter comes in, and it's status quo... ie. Kipper is Kipper of the last couple yrs, the D stats show slight improvement at best, the PP still struggles after changing all the coaches, no division title, and a another first round exit....... i think it would be safe to point the finger directly at the personnel of the team (the leadership group especially) and the person responsible for putting together and retaining the personnel - GM Sutter.
If that were to happen, Playfair and Keenan would almost feel vindicated...
Just saying IF... i don't think it will.

And i agree with your AV take as well... But the thing AV has going for him and why's earned his extension, is his ability accommodate and roll with adversity, ability to modify his approach according to personnel and probably most important, keeping his players accountable.  ( One thing sorely lacking in the handling of Iginla.... altho i can understand why your coaches of the past give the best player on the team a break, it doesn't sit well in the locker room... and i wanna say Phaneuf as well... but  i don't remember him being losing shifts or ice last yr at all).
AV continuously rewards players that are going, demoting those that aren't (almost to a fault)... but it led to Burrows breaking out.  Also led to the burying of Wellwood and Raymond during the 2nd half of the season, but also their reemergence in the playoffs. 

We'll see how he modifies his approach this yr after the Chicago series... I blame that more on the defensive brain farts than the team sitting back trying to protect a lead... I think every team would do the same thing in  playoffs when you have a lead... but most were way more competent at holding than the canucks last spring.
altho it did drive me nuts when they decided to sit and protect a 2 goal lead for 50 minutes.  

But to me, thats one in the same thing. If there is a problem with your locker room it starts with the head coach. Becuase your attitude/philosophy as a team should come from your head coach, not your captain and your team. The coach has to be the strongest leader in the room and the Flames havn't had that since Sutter left the bench. I think its pretty clear, based on how training camp has gone so far, that Brent Sutter is going to be the strongest voice in the locker room.

And also dont get me wrong, I actually like AV as a coach and can admit he is a good coach. I think his coaching style is great, and if he had a more open system I think the Canucks would be far more dangerous and he woudl be touted as one of the top 5 coaches in the league.

  

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[quote name='DL44 wrote:


cross16'] 

And also dont get me wrong, I actually like AV as a coach and can admit he is a good coach. I think his coaching style is great, and if he had a more open system I think the Canucks would be far more dangerous and he woudl be touted as one of the top 5 coaches in the league.

he's never had the horses to play an open style... you need offensive personnel to play an open system, and we haven't been that lucky.  gets back to the whole ' your players dictate the system implemented'. Remember up until last yr Burrows hadn't shown he was anything but a 3rd liner... Kesler was  a HOPE to play on the 2nd line.
We went into last season like this:
Sedin-Sedin-Demitra
Raymond-Wellwood-Bernier
Burrows-Kesler-Hansen
Hordichuk-Johnson-Rypien
Tough to open it up with such an offensively unproven lineup outside the top line.  3rd line was considered an elite level checking line.... not for scoring.  The lineup screamed play defensive.

This yr, the lineup is deeper and a little more established than last yr... we'll see how AV plays it.
Not really.  New Jersey wasn't that much better of an offensive lineup than the Canucks and they opened it up. I also would't call the New York Rangers better than the Canucks on paper and they opened up their system.

I also heard the same thing from Canucks last year, that AV was going to open up his system. Yet it wasn't until later in the season, and fairly reluctantly, that he silghtly opened it up. About 90% of the time, coaches do not change from their philosphies. And sitting on leads, regardless of his personel, has always been his way of doing things. I would be shocked if that changed. I expect the same as last year. It be a little more agressive until they get a lead and then slowly get more and more passive and defensive as the game goes on.

  

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


cross16 wrote:

DL44 wrote:


cross16']

 

And also dont get me wrong, I actually like AV as a coach and can admit he is a good coach. I think his coaching style is great, and if he had a more open system I think the Canucks would be far more dangerous and he woudl be touted as one of the top 5 coaches in the league.

he's never had the horses to play an open style... you need offensive personnel to play an open system, and we haven't been that lucky.  gets back to the whole ' your players dictate the system implemented'. Remember up until last yr Burrows hadn't shown he was anything but a 3rd liner... Kesler was  a HOPE to play on the 2nd line.

We went into last season like this:

Sedin-Sedin-Demitra

Raymond-Wellwood-Bernier

Burrows-Kesler-Hansen

Hordichuk-Johnson-Rypien

Tough to open it up with such an offensively unproven lineup outside the top line.  3rd line was considered an elite level checking line.... not for scoring.  The lineup screamed play defensive.

This yr, the lineup is deeper and a little more established than last yr... we'll see how AV plays it.
Not really.  New Jersey wasn't that much better of an offensive lineup than the Canucks and they opened it up. I also would't call the New York Rangers better than the Canucks on paper and they opened up their system.

I also heard the same thing from Canucks last year, that AV was going to open up his system. Yet it wasn't until later in the season, and fairly reluctantly, that he silghtly opened it up. About 90% of the time, coaches do not change from their philosphies. And sitting on leads, regardless of his personel, has always been his way of doing things. I would be shocked if that changed. I expect the same as last year. It be a little more agressive until they get a lead and then slowly get more and more passive and defensive as the game goes on.

  

Would you not admit then, that 11th was pretty damn good for a team in scoring that only "slightly" opened it up near the end of the season? Especially when the Rangers finished 28th?sure. I think Don you should know of all that i'm not one of those people that just assumes that the Canucks and everything about them suck. I give them alot of credit when credit is due. They were a better team than Calgary last year and have been for a few seaons now and I think they are damn close on paper this year after the Erhoff trade. I'm not really critiquing them or AV, i'm just saying what I view his system to be and its just not personally the system I believe the Canucks need to win a championship. I think its more then enough for them to challenge for the division, potentially win it, and get through a round in the playoffs. My point would be more that I think if the Canucks are to be a true cup contender I think they need a system change thats all.

I guess I also shouldn't be using the term "open it up" becuase that doesn't really apply and its too simplistic. What I found last year was the Canucks were an aggressive team, but still very responsible, until the built a lead. Against weaker teams I often saw them keep pressing, but against stronger teams I felt they held back trying to protect the lead. I don't really call that opening up, but I do think that AV made his system more aggressive in the 2nd half of last season than he did in the first half. I also think their offence is better than alot of people are giving them credit for. There like the Flames though. I mean its been 4 seasons now since the Flames struggled to score goals, yet they still have this stigma they are not a goal scoring team. I think the Canucks will always carry that stigma regardless, but I think they will be a top 15ish scoring team again this year.

  

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[quote name='Wolven wrote:


The_Don']Hodgson sent to Brampton this morning.

Lukowich, Nycholat and Funk on waivers.

Roster now looks like this:

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows

Shirokov - Kesler - Samuelsson

Raymond - Wellwood - Bernier

Hordichuk - Johnson - Rypien/Glass

Mitchell - Salo

Edler - Ehrhoff

Bieksa - O'Brien

Rome

Luongo

Raycroft

Injured: Demitra, Schneider, Hansen

Interesting. I know how high you guys are on that kid. Is the expectation that Hodgson is staying down to develop this year or just until he can get called up and secure a spot? I know with Backlund my expectation is that he is staying on the Heat for the year.

Lukowich looks like an expensive contract to bury in the minors ($1.6M). Did he get outplayed by Rome or is that a salary cap burying?Different situation. Becuase Backlund was drafted as a European he can play in the A at age 19, Hogdson can't. I'm sure the Canucks would prefer to have him in the AHL but they can't.

Junior players rarely get called up during the season so the assumption is that he'll be down there for the entire year. Unless they want to bring him up and potentially eat a year of his contract.

  

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After the 1st head-to-head... The flames took advantage of canucks pretty damn good in that 1st period.

They looked pretty awesome as the canucks can out flat as hell. Everyone looked great in that period for the flames except Boyd.

Kipper was great... didn't have to be spectacular, but fricken saw and got in front of everything tonight... great performance.

a few positives to take out of tonight's game for the canucks...

- they took over the game after the 1st

- The top line vs top line matchup sutter went for tonight definitely favored the twins, they looked great.

- The PP appears to be on this yr for the canucks... the PK without Rypien was solid... he was the prime goat on BOTH PP goals against...

glad to see AV pull him off of it..

- The Wellwood line managed to pin the Pardy-Kronwall pairing twice in the 1st.... unfortunately we never really saw them paired much after that...

What pissed me off tonight.... RYPIEN on the PK. Bieksa had a rough game... he was at fault for the one even strength goal against. How the team came out so fricken flat tonight... out-hit, out-hustled. I was utterly shocked to see the canucks had 7 shot on goal in the first.... 7 of the most useless shots (next to bernier's chance).

Didn't like Kesler embellishing those penalties... embarrassing...

For the flames... like said, everyone looked awesome that 1st period except Boyd. he did nothing all game. Dawes was invisible with the exception one shift after the 1st period. Bourque and Langkow looked great. Moss looked like he didn't belong on the top line.

Also despite CBC giving it to Luongo's performance... i don't blame him much for the goals against... it wasn't a terrible performance. difficult to fault him too much.

I'm actually pretty happy about how this one went after the 1st. Like People's opinion about the flames losing... hopefully this has the same effect for the canucks... A little more focus is required going forward.

anyways...

I agree that there wasn't too much he could do about the goals, but I thought Luongo was still pretty bad. He made some good saves but what really shocked me is the rebounds. He kicked out almost every rebound into a key scoring area and also got cheating pretty bad. He is lucky that Nystrom got his stick perfectly tied up, and Boyd missed a half open net, other wise It could have been 5-0 and worse if the Flames were doing a better slot presence. So the goals weren't his fault, but his rebound control was way off for what I expect out of Luongo. Of course its only the first game but it definetly made things easier for the Flames.

  

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It wasn't Luongo's fault on this one again. If the Flames had played the way the Canucks did, they would have been down 5-0 too. They gave the Flames way too much space. And Luongo actualy gave them a chance to get their heads together and come out strong in the 2nd.

I think he should have stopped the Mcgratton goal, but other than that no real fault there. and the game was already out of reach by that point.

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The PK is the biggest contributing factor to the Flames GAA right now. The last 5 on 5 goal they allowed was against Vancouver and only 2 in the last 4 games. They've been pretty stringy 5 on 5, but their PK is struggling. so i'm not terribly worried about the GAA stat. Shots against is coming down, but quite frankily i think shots against is the most overrated stat in terms of teams. Calgary pretty much dominated Vancouver the last time they played yet the Canucks still got credited with 29 shots and out shot the Flames. its quality and so far the quality of the shots has been way, way down in terms of last year.

Penalties and PK are two things that bother me. PK is somewhat understandable giving a new coaching staff, but penalties are not.

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JBow has not played at a 6.6 million dollar level so I would tend to agree. I think jBow has played better than Erhoff, but i would agree that he hasn't played better by double (as his price tag would warrant).

In terms of Sutter, what hasn't been mentioned is that NJ has gone back to the trap. Much easier to adjust to that system and get wins than Sutter coming in to Calgary and installing a little more complicated of a system. Trap teams always get off to good starts, its how the finish not how they start so i think this is a better argument to have in the 3rd quarter of the season towards the end.

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I would disagree with that percentage as well.

In my mind 50% of it is coaching. 40% Kipper, 10% actually players. But thats also part of my belief that in terms of defensive hockey, systems is more important than personel. IN terms of transition and offence thats a different story but if you highlight just the defensive zone, I think the addition of JBow has meant little to the improvment of the defensive coverage. Its mainly coaching to me becuase now they actually have a defensive zone assignment and get punished if they don't do it.

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Takeaway/Giveaway Difference

Vancouver +19

Calgary -139

Otherwise the stats are pretty consistent from 10 gms ago...

The teams are trending in the same areas with the exception of the Vancouver PK finally turning it up.

I called it the achilles heal for the Cancuks this yr, and its proven to be so so far.

And i would call this the achilles heal for the Flames.

For a coach that preaches neutral zone turnovers and taking care of the puck, the flames do an amazingly poor job executing it especially int he loses. Typically you can add on a few extra turnovers when the Flames lose compared to when they win.

  

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Wow Kessler signs for 6 years $5million per (as per TSN).

Makes the Bourque deal look like a steal. Burrows must be choked.

I disagree. I'd trade Bourque straight up for kesler any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Kesler is hovering around PPG for a center, which being an extremely well rounded hockey player and still improving. Whitle I don't think 5 mill per is a steal, is very good value for a player that can do what he does from the center ice position.

I dont' like the Canucks either, but thats a solid deal.

  

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I agree.

I said this before he was here, when they signed him, and continue to say it. Jbow is overrated by most people in hockey and hockey fans. I've never considered Jbow at op 10 NHL dman, I think he sits in the 15-20 range.

Too many people automatcially assume that just becuase your a good player on a bad team you'll suddenly be so much better on a good team. Thats not true and in fact sometimes can be the opposite. I think the fact that jbow was everything for that team actually helped, not hurt, his overal play.

Solid, but very unspectacular dman. No way is he in the top 15 IMO.

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[quote name='Goat90 wrote:


cross16']I agree.

I said this before he was here, when they signed him, and continue to say it. Jbow is overrated by most people in hockey and hockey fans. I've never considered Jbow at op 10 NHL dman, I think he sits in the 15-20 range.

Too many people automatcially assume that just becuase your a good player on a bad team you'll suddenly be so much better on a good team. Thats not true and in fact sometimes can be the opposite. I think the fact that jbow was everything for that team actually helped, not hurt, his overal play.

Solid, but very unspectacular dman. No way is he in the top 15 IMO.

Not top 15? We'll lets see. Here goes my generic top 15

1.Pronger

2.Lidstrom

3.Keith

4.doughty

5.Green

6.Boyle

7.Weber

8.Chara

9.Gonchar

11.Striet

12.Seabrook

13.Suter

14.Kaberle

15.Regher,Phauneuf,Kronwall,Staal (?)

I think looking at this list  and you pretend last year never happened, myself and probably most people would put Bow somwhere in the 10-15 range. No chance is he 15-25. However I think next year will be a make or break season, we saw moments of greatness but it needs to be there every game. Also hopefulyl Tanguay can give him passes and help his goal total return to around 10-15.

  

Rafalski, Markov. Watch out for Tyler Myers.

"No way he is in the top 15" was probably harsh, but even a few years ago I would have said he was about a top 15 dman in the league and he hans't improved enough to warrant it. Even without last year, I wouldn't consider Jbow in the top 10 or really top 10 or 12.

  

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Yes, back problems. It hasn't healed.

I believe I also read he is out for preseason and most of training camp too.

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Please at least put some effort into as to why you have an opinion othersise your basically trolling. At least guys like Don, Ace, and DL have points not just opinion.

there is no way that the Vancouver prosepct pool is better than the Flames. At worst they are equal but I would suggest the Flames are better becuase they have much better depth. Of course you'll probably respond with the "well who won the prospect game the other day" I would suggest that the Flames absolutly dominated the Canucks in that game but lost the goaltending battle. And the goalie they played isn't even in the Flames system.

Bouwmeester/Gio exceeds Hamhuis- Erhoff IMO. Especially if Bouwmeester plays even 20% better this year. If he plays to his full potential, its easily a better pairing.

Edler/Ballard is equal to Regher/White IMO. Vancouver's pairing can produce more offence, But Regehr is head and shoulder the better shutdown man of that group so IMO that even sit out.

I would say the 4th lines are even as they will bring the same thing. Its hihgly unlikely MOss is on the 4th line so it will be more of an energy style player like Sutter.

The rest I will give you.

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