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Discussion & Debate Thread: Flames and Canucks

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Except our defences our pretty much even, with Vancouver's depth pushing them a little ahead.

You forget that your always overrated defence was terrible last year, lost Aucoin and Vandermeer, and improved a little by signing Bouwmeester. The Canucks on the other handsubtracted the slow and aging Ohlund from their top-10 defence last year, and added Ehrhoff, Schneider and Lukowich, two of which have Cup-winning experience compared to Jay who has never even be able to get Florida into the playoffs.

It's gonna be another slaughter come October 1.

Wow, you still really don't get it do you?

The fact that you think GA is a direct result of the skill set of your blueliners is just sad. Going by this absolutely terrible logic there were 19 better defensive cores than Detroit last year, and 17 better than what Anaheim was putting out there every night. Whereas a team like Minnesota had the second best defensemen right?

As for Bouwmeester not taking the Panthers to the playoffs, Luongo never did either so I guess he can't be any worse than him. 

You're trolling attempts continue to be weak at best.

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[quote name='TheAce wrote:


Zirakzigil']I really dont see how you can compare the Flames and Canucks defense.
In a 60 minute game you are going to see Bouwmeester out there for 25-30min a game and Regehr out there for 20-30min a game.
This means that you will have a star defenseman out there for almost the entire game. 
The Canucks do not have a defenseman to match what either one of them brings to the game
. Then you add Phaneuf who has the ability to be a factor on the ice as well. Yes the Canucks have more depth and in the event of injuries have similar skill set players with the ability to step up, but they do not have a defenseman who can go out and set the tone on what is going to happen on the ice, the Flames have 2 and sometimes 3 defensemen that can do that. The Flames top 4 is better then the Canucks top 4. You are going to see the Flames top 4 on the ice for 50+ minutes a game. The bottom 2 defensemen are going to see limited minutes which will pretty much negate the fact that the Canucks have a better bottom 2.

You go on to say that Vancouver doesnt have a D-man that can match either of those players. Atleast a few honest flame fans have admitted that ever since Mitchell started playing against Iginla, he has been shut down pretty nicely. I dont think you can say the same about Regehr with the Sedins. In fact im not sure if there is a team that the Sedins play better against than Calgary. And before you say that there are 2 of them so how can Regehr shut 2 players down, isnt the critizism that the Sedins cant play without each other? So if Regehr was able to shut one of them down, then the other should be useless without him.

Ive admitted before that Bouwmeester is a very good player. I think someone would be foolish to say otherwise, but at the same time I dont think he is a Lidstrom/Chara type player. He averages 40 points a year and is a career minus player. I believe he is better defensively that his stats would say but I wouldnt say he dominant. I think most canuck fans underestimate him whether it be out of bitterness that we never signed him or that he signed with our biggest rival but I think Calgary fans overestimate what he will bring to your team much like when you got Jokinen, Tanguay, Amonte.

Iginla had 6 points in 6 games against the Canucks last season, which is just as good or better than either of the Sedin's when playing against Regehr. Either way, the only people who think Mitchell is on the same level as Regehr are Canuck fans, Mitchell didn't get an invitation to the Olympic camp whereas guys like Regehr, Hamhuis, and Seabrook did. All of whom I would consider better than Mitchell as of right now.

As for what Bouwmeester will bring is a solid addition to our blueline right away, and he has the potential to be a Norris winning d-man in the next few years. Most defensemen don't become dominant until a bit later in their careers.

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[quote name='Hockey_Canada1 wrote:


Hiphopopotamus wrote:

TheAce wrote:

Zirakzigil']I really dont see how you can compare the Flames and Canucks defense.
In a 60 minute game you are going to see Bouwmeester out there for 25-30min a game and Regehr out there for 20-30min a game.
This means that you will have a star defenseman out there for almost the entire game. 
The Canucks do not have a defenseman to match what either one of them brings to the game
. Then you add Phaneuf who has the ability to be a factor on the ice as well. Yes the Canucks have more depth and in the event of injuries have similar skill set players with the ability to step up, but they do not have a defenseman who can go out and set the tone on what is going to happen on the ice, the Flames have 2 and sometimes 3 defensemen that can do that. The Flames top 4 is better then the Canucks top 4. You are going to see the Flames top 4 on the ice for 50+ minutes a game. The bottom 2 defensemen are going to see limited minutes which will pretty much negate the fact that the Canucks have a better bottom 2.

You go on to say that Vancouver doesnt have a D-man that can match either of those players. Atleast a few honest flame fans have admitted that ever since Mitchell started playing against Iginla, he has been shut down pretty nicely. I dont think you can say the same about Regehr with the Sedins. In fact im not sure if there is a team that the Sedins play better against than Calgary. And before you say that there are 2 of them so how can Regehr shut 2 players down, isnt the critizism that the Sedins cant play without each other? So if Regehr was able to shut one of them down, then the other should be useless without him.

Ive admitted before that Bouwmeester is a very good player. I think someone would be foolish to say otherwise, but at the same time I dont think he is a Lidstrom/Chara type player. He averages 40 points a year and is a career minus player. I believe he is better defensively that his stats would say but I wouldnt say he dominant. I think most canuck fans underestimate him whether it be out of bitterness that we never signed him or that he signed with our biggest rival but I think Calgary fans overestimate what he will bring to your team much like when you got Jokinen, Tanguay, Amonte.

Iginla had 6 points in 6 games against the Canucks last season, which is just as good or better than either of the Sedin's when playing against Regehr. Either way, the only people who think Mitchell is on the same level as Regehr are Canuck fans, Mitchell didn't get an invitation to the Olympic camp whereas guys like Regehr, Hamhuis, and Seabrook did. All of whom I would consider better than Mitchell as of right now.

As for what Bouwmeester will bring is a solid addition to our blueline right away, and he has the potential to be a Norris winning d-man in the next few years. Most defensemen don't become dominant until a bit later in their careers.

Against the Flames last year, Daniel had 8 points and Henrik had 6.

Against the Flames yes, not against Regehr. He missed two games against the Canucks.

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Hockey_Canada1 wrote:

Did he play the first two games of the season? Sedins had 5 and 4 points in those 2 games.

He missed the first game of the season where they both had 3 points.

It worked out to 4 points in 4 games for Daniel, and 3 points in 4 games for Henrik. Hence why I said Iginla has done just as good or better than each Sedin.

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This debate about the defense is getting a little out of hand.

Calgary may have the star power, as it were, but the simple fact remains that, all things being equal, the Canucks top 6 put up considerably better numbers than the Flames top 6.

Flames top 6 of Bouwmeester, Phaneuf, Regehr, Giordano, Moss and Pardy combined for 175 points last season.

Canucks top 6 of Bieksa, Edler, Erhoff, Schnieder, Mitchell and Salo put up 202 points last season.

The Canucks have 4, possibly 5, players on defense that could put up 40 points.

The Flames have only 3.

Stats don't tell the whole story, but they do tell a lot.

Its clealy in favor of the Canucks on this issue.

Moss?

Anyways... The Flames have 3 players who were invited to Canada's camp and the Canucks have 0.

When is the last time 5 defenders on the same team put up 40 points? How about 4 even, you are getting your hopes up way too high. Anybody who actually believes the Canucks blueline is better than the Flames right now is absolutely delusional. 

Either way, you have no idea what you are talking about as illustrated earlier in your post.

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Given the number of 2nd and 3rd liners on both teams who had career years last year offense is a lot harder to speculate on at the moment. Not to mention the Flames bringing in an entire new coaching staff, Sutter will obviously play a lot more of a defense oriented system however I am expecting the Flames PP to improve as well.

I really do believe this is the most evenly matched area of the two teams and I consider it to be a wash, I expect that by the end of next year both teams will be in the top 15 in scoring separated by no more than 10 goals.

Though considering the way the Defense debate went, I expect some Canuck fans to come in here and say they have us beat by a mile.

Flames D > Canucks D

Flames O = Canucks O

Flames Goaltending < Canucks Goaltending

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[quote name='TheAce wrote:


Codes']Wow.  I'm literally blown away by peoples' inability to acknowledge that the Flames' defensive system was
crap,
which is very apparent if you look at team stats, and individual players' defensive statistics.

With Sutter at the helm, I fully anticipate that the Flames will have better defensive stats than the Canucks right across the board.

Not sure if this was directed at me but my whole point is that Mitchell is not that far out of Regehr's league as some have suggested.  I only bring up stats to show that im not making stuff up and there is some proof to what Im saying.

There is no accurate stat that will tell the full story of how good a shutdown defensemen is, you just have to watch them play and make a decision for yourself.

The only other pure shutdown defender I would say is on Regehr's level is Paul Martin of the Devils, two guys I think could very likely pass him within the next 5 years are Seabrook and Staal. I'm not even sure I would consider Mitchell top 5 right now, Canuck fans are really the only ones who think so highly of him. He's good not great.

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[quote name='TheAce wrote:


Hiphopopotamus wrote:

TheAce wrote:

Codes']Wow.  I'm literally blown away by peoples' inability to acknowledge that the Flames' defensive system was
crap,
which is very apparent if you look at team stats, and individual players' defensive statistics.

With Sutter at the helm, I fully anticipate that the Flames will have better defensive stats than the Canucks right across the board.

Not sure if this was directed at me but my whole point is that Mitchell is not that far out of Regehr's league as some have suggested.  I only bring up stats to show that im not making stuff up and there is some proof to what Im saying.

There is no accurate stat that will tell the full story of how good a shutdown defensemen is,
you just have to watch them play and make a decision for yourself.

The only other pure shutdown defender I would say is on Regehr's level is Paul Martin of the Devils, two guys I think could very likely pass him within the next 5 years are Seabrook and Staal. I'm not even sure I would consider Mitchell top 5 right now, Canuck fans are really the only ones who think so highly of him. He's good not great.

Besides a few games vs Calgary or during playoffs have you watched enough of Mitchell to give an accurate judgement?

I've watched enough to know there are better guys out there. Apparently the scouts for team Canada think so too.

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[quote name='TheAce wrote:


Hiphopopotamus wrote:

TheAce wrote:

Hiphopopotamus wrote:

TheAce wrote:

Codes']Wow.  I'm literally blown away by peoples' inability to acknowledge that the Flames' defensive system was
crap,
which is very apparent if you look at team stats, and individual players' defensive statistics.

With Sutter at the helm, I fully anticipate that the Flames will have better defensive stats than the Canucks right across the board.

Not sure if this was directed at me but my whole point is that Mitchell is not that far out of Regehr's league as some have suggested.  I only bring up stats to show that im not making stuff up and there is some proof to what Im saying.

There is no accurate stat that will tell the full story of how good a shutdown defensemen is,
you just have to watch them play and make a decision for yourself.

The only other pure shutdown defender I would say is on Regehr's level is Paul Martin of the Devils, two guys I think could very likely pass him within the next 5 years are Seabrook and Staal. I'm not even sure I would consider Mitchell top 5 right now, Canuck fans are really the only ones who think so highly of him. He's good not great.

Besides a few games vs Calgary or during playoffs have you watched enough of Mitchell to give an accurate judgement?

I've watched enough to know there are better guys out there. Apparently the scouts for team Canada think so too.

How did Regehr and the team do last Olympics?  Savard wasnt invited to the camp either...does that mean he isnt a good player or isnt better/equal than some that did get asked?  What happens if Regehr doesnt make the team? Does that mean he drops out of your top 3?

If we used Team Canada's picks to determine things than I guess Lindros was a great leader and I guess Bourque was a better choice of taking a penalty shot than Gretzky or Yzerman. Dirk Graham was choosen over Sakic, Yzerman and Adam Oates 1 year.  There are many examples where Team Canada hasnt made the right decisions so I dont think it should play a factor on how good Mitchell is

It doesn't, it just backs up my argument more than anything. Savard wasn't invited because there are better scoring centers available and better defensive forwards available as well.

Mitchell wasn't invited because there are better shutdown defenders out there. But I guess you know more than Stevie Y right?

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


littlereddevil wrote:

DL44']

If you consider Jokinen a replacement for Cammalleri... then you've gotta consider a replacement
Lombardi
(46pts in 59gms - better pts than Bourque).

So then your talking about Dawes and Sjostrom replacing Bertuzzi and Lombardi.

oh, and maybe Fleury... unlikely but ok...

also if you got 3 bodies to hopefully make up the production of 2...  body for body, there's a missing piece of the offensive pie. An overall decrease of forward depth...  I thought this had been established already?

There's an overall downgrade at forward.

Overall the defense is expected to contribute more than they did last yr... Bouwmeester is an attractive offensively capable Dman that should take significant defensive responsibility off of Phaneuf.  If Phaneuf can be used in all the primary offensive situations, and leave the prime defensive responsibility to JBo, Regher and Sarich, he should have his best offensive season yet.  It should make up some of the difference of the lost points upfront.

The Flames total O shouldn't drop too much... but the realistic expectation is some sort of drop.

I know I just realised I forgot mentioning Lombardi's name, but his best production (PPG wise) came with the Coyotes.

Mabye I'm just a bit over realistic with Fleury, but who isn't excited about his return to the NHL?

Flames will still have no issues scoring this season.

  

Can you at least admit that there is a chance that it could be a potential problem?

Don't do it. It's a trap.

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


iggygiggy']Canucks are such an amazing team....

My opinions were slandered left right and center by a so called flames fan who is really a canuck fan....

As I said this Canuck team is nothing but a team that can compete for the bottom 2 spots for the playoffs and they won't make it. The Canucks aren't built to be a good sustained team through this season. Their top line with the Sedins you shut them down and your work is done. Burrows and Kesler's years last year was a one hit wonder their definitely going to tail off this season, you can't except these guys to front your team scoring. As for Luongo as I said he's the wild card, he can be really good or really bad and as of late the guy has been horrible. The LONG road trip is going to kill the Canucks it would kill any team. But hey omgzzz tsn and sportsnet said canuckz are suppose to be #1 and stanley cup champs, haha that's laughable. Nice try but the Canucks are no where near stanley cup material.

LOL, I guess Detroit is going to either miss or barely scrape into the playoffs too...

I have no problem with you having the opinion that you do. I find it somewhat amusing that's just me. But if you think that because they started 0-2 it proves that you are right then you are sadly mistaken. Like I said before, the Red Wings also started 0-2.

Detroit's core is made up of Stanley cup winners, Vancouver's core is made up of guys coming off of career seasons trying to prove they are contenders.

I don't see the similarities. 

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[quote name='DL44 wrote:


Hiphopopotamus']According to spike TV the Canucks have us beat at yet another thing...
smile.gif

Not surprising considering the writer of that article is from calgary and/or is apparently a big Flames fan.  what do you expect really.

According to the poll on team1040's website 72% of the people who voted agree with him.

It's not like he put the Oilers on the list, maybe he is on to something.

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


DL44 wrote:

The_Don']So how about Mason Raymond vs. Dustin Boyd?

Raymond right now...  but boyd has the higher ceiling.  I believe that was the concensus earlier in this thread.

Other topics.

Bourque vs Kesler

Bourque vs Burrows

Sutter vs AV

Iggy/Ollie vs Twins

D vs D

JBo vs Bieksa (offensively)

Kipper vs Luongo

Backlund vs Hodgson
Let's see how those are going:

Bourque vs. Kesler:

G - 10, 9

A - 18, 22

P - 28, 31

- +1, even

Bourque vs. Burrows:

G - 10, 10

A - 18, 13

P - 28, 23

- +1, +10

Sutter vs. AV: (I guess team success)

Wins - 20, 20

Points - 44, 40

Iginla/Jokinen vs. Sedins:

G - 26, 22

A - 36, 42
P - 62, 64
- +4, +19
PPG - 0.88, 1.23

Flames D vs. Canucks D: (scoring?)

G - 16, 17
A - 53, 59
P - 69, 76

- +26, +24

Bouwmeester vs. Bieksa:

G - 2, 1

A - 12, 14
P - 14, 15

- +7, even

Kiprusoff vs. Luongo:

Wins - 18, 16

Win% - .580, .592

GAA - 2.20, 2.40
SV% - .927, .917
SO - 3, 2

Backlund vs. Hodgson:

GP - 0, 0

G - 0, 0

A - 0, 0

P - 0, 0

- even, even

Total: Calgary - 13 , Vancouver - 13, ties - 7

Wow.

If you add PPG to the other comparisons, Flames take the lead. pimp.gif

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[quote name='DL44 wrote:


Hiphopopotamus']Are Canucks fans happy about the fact that their team is out of the playoffs 3 months into the season?

Not exactly. Which fan base would be?

oohhhhh! Attempt at trash talk... got it.

Pretty happy about the direction of this team right now considering the adversity they've faced.

Happy about them chewing up 6 points on Calgary since Dec 1st.

I feel better about my team than flames fan feel about theirs right now.

How do you feel about your flames this month hipo?... this yr?

(i would prefer a discussion... not interested in trash talk...)My question was pretty dumb, just likes your was.

You waited until the Flames got into a pretty big slump to come in here asking how we feel about things like Brent Sutter, it's just a dumb thing to do. You weren't in here making posts like that at the end of November when the Flames were playing good, you waited until something like this happened.

So don't get started on all this trash talk crap, your intentions were pretty evident.

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[quote name='DL44 wrote:


Hiphopopotamus']NJ vs West 2-2-1

Calgary vs West 15-11-4

NJ vs East 24-6-0

Calgary vs East 5-0-1

And last yr?

at least give us the comparison stat to give us the perspective of what it means.
I know what it suggests, but what's different than last yr?

It means comparing a team's record in the West with another in the East is unfair, East is clearly an inferior conference and it shows, the level of competition is much lower. Canucks are a below .500 team against the West, to give you an idea of things.

I honestly don't even know what point you are trying to make with this whole Sutter thing that you suddenly brought up at a pretty convenient time. Are you suggesting the Flames would be better off with Keenan? Or are you just trying to get us to bash him because the team is in a slump?

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Obviously the dude with the laser was just trying to bring Canucks fans up a spot or 2 as one of the worst fanbases in the world.

I'd say job well done. Hopefully Spike has an update of the list within the year.

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[quote name='Chairman_Maouth wrote:


Hiphopopotamus']Well, AV seemed to be fine with it...

“Great fans,” Canucks head coach Alain Vigneault joked when asked about the incident. “I'm not sure it happened that often.”

You missed the word "joked" in there?

However I'd probably call it more sarcastic.

Perhaps he shouldn't be joking about it in the first place?

What exactly is funny about pointing a laser in the eye of another person, what is there to joke about? 

The guy is an idiot. Perfect fit for the Team.

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[quote name='Chairman_Maouth wrote:


Hiphopopotamus wrote:

Chairman_Maouth']You missed the word "joked" in there?

However I'd probably call it more sarcastic.

Perhaps he shouldn't be joking about it in the first place?

What exactly is funny about pointing a laser in the eye of another person, what is there to joke about? 

The guy is an idiot. Perfect fit for the Team.

And as always, that's what it comes down to right. The Canucks, the Canucks fans, and  the Canucks organization are all idiots. Damn. If you ever fall off that pedestal you're up on you're going to die man! It's too high!!

Way to dodge the point, can you still explain to me why he should be joking about someone getting a laser pointed at their eyes?

Perhaps when Flames fans start rioting, and throwing trash on the ice among other things I will bring that pedestal down a bit.

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