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Discussion & Debate Thread: Flames and Canucks

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Sigh..... it looks like we can add Vancouver to the list of Washington and Chicago for high offensive teams that have very questionable goaltending

Now if the dive master and his hair pulling buddy could start sucking....smile.gif

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please if all your going to say is flames >canucks...dont bother posting it, it doesnt help or proove anything and nobody can really bring an rguement against that for credible reasons

besides...we all know this anyways :D

i dont see how anyone thinks vancouver will be betetr next year...

the canucks figured they need a top 6 legit forward...they signed samuelson who only had 40 points to a 2.5 million contract...thanks but glencross does that for 1.2, and not for the red wings who make everyone better.

they also said they need a top defenceman/puck moving d-man...not only have they not signed one, they let a very solid d-man walk away...

so...in making a plan...and sticking too it (THUS FAR) they get an F.

calgary feels they needed...a new coaching staff and system....they work some sutter magic to bring in a highly regarded coach with a defensive mind...+1

calgary needs a puck moving d-man...not only do they sign one, they sign the most coveted free agent on the market...and all they gave away was one of new jerseys trades....(uncle lou, thanks for this off season)

for this...they get a A+

now even if they the nucks do sign a free agent d-man whom they need....and even if it is beacheman, the best of the rest....hes STILL not as good of way to fulfill your needs, like calgary did, and you STILL let a very good d-man walk away. i fail to see any nucks upgrades yet.

now i know what is going to be said here..."we won the NW and played better" etc etc etc..."you have cap issues"

A) do you forget the lead we had for the majority of the season and how much better we were for a large part? and as it would wind up...we both lost easily to the same team...

B) a cap issue remains to be seen and im sure darrly has learned his lesson.

(if one person says omg you let cammi go, you fail, jokinen IS his replacement, not to mention phaneufs former coach will bring pahenuf back and get more out fo him, bouwmeester adds some offence, and bourque being healthy is good for some more....now your gonna say .."hes injury prone"...well....seeing as no hockey has yet to be played, and this whole thread is based on ON PAPER....everyone is healthy right now)

okay nucks fans...now its your turn to tear me apart :P

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is gillis incompetent or why does nobody want to go there thusfar...

all these havlat/gaborik/hossa etc etc etc rumours and they sign...samuelsson...

they want, puck moving d-man...rumours of..J-Bo, Beaucheman, Oduya, Anyone....there obly defensive move...let Ohlund walk...lol.

now i the biggest Canucks fan wish i can hear is Cam Barker, and thats not gonna happen since the goof up in chicago isnt going to result in the dismanteling of a solid organization.

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[quote name=Dusty_Foot_Philosopher wrote:


Mitchell's name comes up all the time when people are talking about the best shutdown defenceman in the game. He also isn't scared of points.

Stop the tack-tack comparisons. They're stupidly biased, and most of you are leaving out Salo anyway. Look at both defences as a whole.

Bouwmeester-Phaneuf

Regehr-Sarich

Giordano-Pardy

Pelech-Stralman

Salo-Mitchell

Ehrhoff-Edler

Bieksa-O'Brien

Schneider-Lukowich

Obviously top end talent is in favour of the Flames, but depth is in favour of the Canucks. Both very strong d-corps, and both teams should be very happy.

You keep saying depth but you really don't provide much in the way of making your point.

We all agree Calgary has the star power on D, however the Flames also have one of the deepest D cores in the league. One thing to keep in mind is that 5-6th D men will likely see 10 minutes a game, far more important to have a stronger top 4 and 2 extra's that do there job very well for minimal pay.

Anyways your on the Flames boards to argue your point, nothing we say will change your mind and I suspect most people with any understanding of the game will see that Calgary has one of the deepest D cores in the league as well as one of the if not the top rated D cores in the league. Not saying Vancouver's is bad by any strech of the imagination, but... eh nevermind I've said what I wanted to say.

coop1105]Toproperly compare, you have to weight their contributions by ice timeand key situations.  In other words, the top 4 are the most importantbecause they account for about 50 minutes a game.  To use yourcomparisons, Hockey_Canada1, when considered by ice time:

Bouwmeesteris SUBSTANTIALLY better than Edler.  I mean, come on seriously, we arenot talking about similar players here.  JBo is widely regarded as oneof the top 5 defensemen in the league.  Even if he were playing for theLeafs, Edler would not be considered top 20 by anyone.

Regehrvs. Mitchell... don't ask Calgary fans, ask everyone east of Kelowna,Regehr is probably the best shut down defenseman in the NHL. Mitchell's name comes up, um... NEVER in the conversation.  ButMitchell did look good at the Team Canada camp this week!

Phaneufvs. Erhoff: No one criticized Phaneuf's play last year more than me. However, he will be put in much better situations this year and his oldJr coach will get him re-focused on what he does well.  Again, there issimply no contest here.  Imagine putting Gillis and Sutter in a roomand offering the two of them a trade straight-up, Phaneuf for Erhoff...which one do you think would fall off his chair laughing?

Sarichvs. Bieksa: I like them both and would welcome either as my 4thdefenseman.  Call it a tie (though Bieksa seems to be hurt a lot more).

Both teams have lots of depth behind the top 4 so we will call that a draw as well. 

Butseriously, there is a reason why there were 3 Flames dmen at theOlympic camp and no Nucks.  There is simply no comparison here.  Thebest thing the Nuck D has going for it is Luongo and when he was hurtlast year, I don't recall anyone remarking about how great any of thedmen were.

Quoting this because this does a pretty good job of summing up the situation.

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It's quite humorous when certain types begin to run out of logical arguments.

"Ours is even or better because I said so!"

"Your defense is overrated lolol"

"Improved only a little"

"Some of our D has cup rings lolol!"

"Jbo couldn't carry florida to the playoffs (the same way Lou couldn't carry Van anywhere at all) lololol"

"Wes gonna win because I said so! lololol!"

Seriously that post was perfect, nothing like a pointless and illogical argument based on 1 biased fans opinion that was more of a rant than anything else to brighten ones otherwise long work day. Thank you.

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While I am not a fan of stats as they leave out so much when analyzing a player as a whole, since most Canuck fans love to drag stats out as justifications for slandering the flames "overrated" players I say well done Demonous, well done.

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<Inserts old saying about good teams finding ways to win here>

Seriously tho while I expect the nucks to rebound and make the playoffs (even if they squeak in laugh.gif) the Flames and Nucks have been in completely different leagues so far this season. <Insert excuses here, popular picks are injuries (even tho Calgary couldn't claim the same last year oddly enough) and players working off the rust>

Being that Calgary was an at best average team for the past few years, I'm loving this current team. Faults and all, the team is winning and improving game to game while sorting out the issues and making the final adjustments to the system. This to me is the difference between an average team (which the Flames have been the past few years) and a contending team (currently we are, like it or not), finding ways to get the job done regardless of the issues.

Regardless of every other game, being undefeated by Canadian teams for the first few months of the season just makes me smile glasses.gif

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Dear Flames fans,

Please don't gloat. The Hockey Gods hate gloaters.

After 20 years of playing, watching and living hockey I don't believe in "the hockey gods".

Call me a hockey Atheist.

The Flames are doing well, our fellow Canadian rivals... not so much. I for one am relishing it while I can as it won't last forever, nothing good does.

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I'm sorry but you're trying to validate comparing your TWO big players to ONE of our big players. If you gotta through an extra guy in the mix to even compore to the great Iggy, then the arguments won.

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I'll take Iggy and joker before i'll take the twins only because if one twin gets injured the other one aint that good anymore as where iggy and joker will still be good cause they don't need one another to perform , the twins do.
also the twins are babbies they can't fight and iggy can.

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


hutterite']

I'll take Iggy and joker before i'll take the twins only because if one twin gets injured the other one aint that good anymore as where iggy and joker will still be good cause they don't need one another to perform , the twins do.

also the twins are babbies they can't fight and iggy can.

Says who?

Everybody knows that the twins need each other you can't trade for just one , they come in a packaged. Did you see when one of them got hurt the other one wasn't as effective as before. On a side not if this game had no injuries I would take them over Iggy only because they are younger but i would lose a great team leader which they arent.

  

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


hutterite wrote:

The_Don wrote:

hutterite']

I'll take Iggy and joker before i'll take the twins only because if one twin gets injured the other one aint that good anymore as where iggy and joker will still be good cause they don't need one another to perform , the twins do.

also the twins are babbies they can't fight and iggy can.

Says who?

Everybody knows that the twins need each other you can't trade for just one , they come in a packaged. Did you see when one of them got hurt the other one wasn't as effective as before. On a side not if this game had no injuries I would take them over Iggy only because they are younger but i would lose a great team leader which they arent.

  
Does everyone know that? How do you know that, considered they very rarely get hurt. The last time either one missed a game was 06/07 when Daniel missed ONE game. That was Novemeber 25, 2006. Henrik had an assist in that game.

You can speculate all you want, but there is no way to no for sure how effective they will be apart for an extended period of time, because they have never had to be. They wouldn't simply forget how to skate, pass and shoot because their brother isn't on the ice.

Listen I think they are great togethor but ask your self one question. if i were a gm would i trade for just one and i garentee no gm would and if one would enlighten me who will that is thanks? 

  

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I think Vigneault made some bad decisions - or at least let some bad decisions be made by his players - in the Chicago series. That said, he is pretty awesome and I rarely find any problem with his game-plans, media comments or the team atmosphere.

I do think coaching is overrated though, just from my own experience playing sports. It's still a crucial part of the game, but when I see people saying that Pat Quinn is going to completely transform how the Oilers play, or how Brent Sutter will instantly turn around certain lacking facets of Calgary's game last year... it just irritates me. At the end of the day, it comes down to the players. At least wait until a month or so into the season before making those claims. Especially when your first game is against the Vancouver Canucks tongue.gif

Yea we thought coaching was over rated too, until one day, Darryl Sutter came to Calgary.  Then, he took a bunch of nobodies to one goal of winning the whole damn thing.

Then, having to watch Keenan for two seasons do so little with so much talent leaves us all with a bad taste in our mouth.

I questioned AV's coaching in the Chicago series too.  He came 2-minutes away from going up 3 games to 1 and then completely changed game plans because of it... dumb move in my opinion because the Canucks can't run and gun with the Hawks.  They played into the hands of the Hawks by going on the offense.

Anyways, Brent Sutter will be vastly different from Keenan.  If he uses Phaneuf properly, that alone is already a 3 or 4 point improvement in the standings...

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D. Sedin + H. Sedin vs. Jokinen + Iginla

Pretty interesting debate/comparison.

Two good players with world class chemistry VS two world class players with little to no chemistry.

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There was a big discussion on the Fan the other day, about whether a goalie in general and Luongo in particular should ever be the captain.  A lot of pros and cons tossed about, but I think they all missed the most important one.  There was a lot of discussion about leading in the dressing room versus leading on the ice, and leading by example versus speechmaking.  It was generally agreed that the best captains have let by example, and been able to "pick a team up and carry it", or "make the big play" when it's most needed.  I think one thing that handicaps a goalie in that regard is that he has to play a more passive role in the game.  Yes, he can make the huge save that inspires the team or keeps them in the game, but he can't do it on his own terms.  The goalie has to wait for the play to come to him.  He has to wait for the other team to come in and take the shot.  Only then, in reactive mode, can he perform.  A forward or defenceman, seeing that his team needs a spark, can go out and throw a good hit, or make an inspired rush up ice, or even just encourage his mates on the bench, and then go out and skate hard for a full 60 seconds.

Not that I don't think a goalie can be a good leader, but I think that his unique situation in a game prevents him from being the inspirational, on-ice sparkplug that the best captains are/have been.

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[quote name='Demonous_Xodus wrote:


Dusty_Foot_Philosopher']All emotional attachment/undeserved hatred aside, would Calgary fans trade Jarome Iginla for both the Sedins?

   Is Vancouver throwing in a first rounder, Edler and Rights to Virtual Sami Salo?

I remember that laugh.gif

  

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What argument is that

http://www.nhl.com/ice/ne...?id=451145&...vid=DL|NHL|Home

Poll asks who will finish first in West this season. Options are obvious front-runners San Jose, Detroit and Vancouver.

Obvious front runners???? Detroit's gotten weaker in the off-season (although they'll still be a strong team), so has San Jose (who's in cap trouble)

If you look at the poll results, the majority of people have voted for Other, meaning that there probably will be a huge amount of competition next season. To be honest, next season will be the first season where it's pretty uncertain who'll win....

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1978 NHL Entry Draft

5. Mike Gillis

15. Steve Tambellini

179. Darryl Sutter

Chalk up another point for us.

Who cares?

Besides, look at Darryl Sutter's career stats vs. Mike Gillis' stats

Sutter vs. Gillis

Mike Gillis was a bust, Darryl Sutter put up very good numbers for someone who was drafted 179th overall.

PWNED danceg.gif

    

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Well I still think Bourque-Jokinen-Iginla will be a solid line, probably not as strong as Sedin-Sedin-Burrows, but still a great line

I see Bourque hitting 25 goals and 50 points if he stays healthy all season

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


Demonous_Xodus wrote:

The_Don']But again, 100%

Sutter became GM during the 04 Season, thus begininng our streak of 5 consecutive playoff appearances. Sutter is also 100% at making the playoffs.

You sir, got pwnt.
dude, it's a tie.

well isn't 5 for 5 better than 1 for 1?

  

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


littlereddevil wrote:

The_Don wrote:

Demonous_Xodus wrote:

The_Don']But again, 100%

Sutter became GM during the 04 Season, thus begininng our streak of 5 consecutive playoff appearances. Sutter is also 100% at making the playoffs.

You sir, got pwnt.
dude, it's a tie.

well isn't 5 for 5 better than 1 for 1?

  
100% is 100%

How about consecutive years past the first round?

In the immortal words of Jack Black....

"I WIN! ONE TO NOTHIN'!"

That's like saying:

"oh we did well, we got 1st place, but there only was one team!" roll.gif

  

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A comparison of the back-to-back schedules for the Flames and Canucks...

The Flames:

Oct 8/9: @Oilers, Stars

Oct 12/13: @Hawks, @BJs

Nov 4/5: @Stars, @Blues

Nov 13/14: @Sabres, @Leafs

Nov 27/28: @Red Wings, @ BJs

December 27/28: Canucks, @Oilers

December 30/31: Kings, Oilers

Jan 5/6: @Predators, @Wild

Jan 8/9: BJs, @Canucks

Jan 17/18: @Ducks, @Sharks

Jan 27/28: @Stars, @Coyotes

Feb 5/6: @Panthers, @Lightning

Mar 14/15: @Canucks, RedWings

Mar 27/28: @Bruins, @Capitals

The Canucks:

Oct 16/17: @Flames, Wild

Oct 24/25: Leafs, Oilers

Oct 29/30: @ Kings, @ Ducks

Nov 5/6: @ Wild, @Stars

Nov 28/29: Oilers, Sharks

Dec 2/3: @Devils, @Flyers

Dec 26/27: Oilers, @Flames

Jan 20/21: @Oilers, Stars

Feb 11/12: @Panthers, @CBJ

Mar 2/3: @CBJ, @Wings

Mar 9/10: @Avs, @Yotes

Mar 13/14: Sens, Flames

Mar 23/24: @Oilers, Ducks

April 1/2: @Kings, @Ducks

Both teams have 14 back-to-backs this season.

Calgary has just 1 back-to-back where they don't travel between games.

The Canucks have 5... huge difference right there.

The ducks benefit by being on the back half 3/4 times vs the canucks.

CBJ benefit by having 3/4 of their games vs the flames during a back-to-back for the flames... twice on the back half.

22/28 games for the flames are road games. 18/28 for the canucks.

Huge compression of back-to-backs where there are 4 in 3 weeks for the canucks - Oct 16th to Nov 6th.

Even worse for Calgary with 4 back-to-backs in just 2 weeks between Dec 27th to Jan 9th.

Canucks have 3 back-to-backs during the 14 game split road trip... they end the road trip with a back-back and start the subsequent home stand with another back-to-back.

Calgary has the heaviest travel schedule in the league this yr, a title usually reserved for the Canucks, and the flames back-to-back schedule gives a glimpse of why...

Gillis' meeting with the NHL last yr where they worked out a preliminary road schedule seems to have worked out nicely since the Canucks (a team usually with the worst travel schedule in the league) was not even in the top 5 highest travelling teams this yr.  It's a one of the most efficient schedules they have ever had, even with the 2 back-to-back 7 gamers...

anyways.... any other observations?

Not......fair...... frown.gif

This just makes me hate Bettman even more devil.gif  

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