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Discussion & Debate Thread: Flames and Canucks

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[quote name='ren1 wrote:


Hockey_Canada1']shall we compare defensive cores now?
:lol:

For sure!

Ours is still the best in the league, and as an added bonus it doesn't bring us $3 million over the cap.

Exactly. Gillis hasn't been able to manage the cap efficiently, and look what he has:

1. An inconsistent defensemen who is way over-payed (O'Brien),

2. Another inconsistent defensemen who plays poorly in his own end (Ehrhoff, who was -12 last season)

3. Two cripples who are bound to get injured (Schneider and Salo)

4. A bunch of pylons (Rome and Nycholat)

5. Another player who *gasp* is a turnover machine (Bieksa, who was -4 last season)

6. An overrated shutdown defenseman (Mitchell, who according to Canucks fans should be on Team Canada)

7. And mabye two proven NHL defensemen (Lukowich and Edler)..... but even that's a stretch

In other words Gillis has overspent on defense.

So now we're overpaying for our defense..... puhhleezze!

  

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People are seriously underrating the Canuck defence, and they know it... I hope.

This group was one of the best last year, and they replaced Ohlund with Ehrhoff and Schneider... which I think is a serious upgrade in all terms.

Salo-Mitchell

Edler-Ehrhoff

Bieksa-O'Brien

Schneider

Looks yummy to me. Great offence, great defence, great goaltending = great team.

Except for one thing:

S-A-L-A-R-Y C-A-P

  

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I dont think too many people will argue how good Jay-Bo is but if we take a look at some stats its interesting. Based on the last 2 full seasons ( im taking out the injury plagued year for Bieksa. It was a freak accident, he isnt a soft player like Salo)

Bouwmeeter  - 06/07  - 12 goals / 30 assists 42 points

                        08/09 -  15 goals/ 27 assists 42 points

Bieksa -  06/07 - 12 goals/ 30 assists 42 points

               08/09 - 11 goals/32 assists 43 points

Career wise Jay-Bo is minus 27 and Bieksa is minus 15. Now I know that Jay played on a bad team his whole career but he did have a year with +23 and he also played in front of Luongo . Jay has also led all D-men in ice time the last few years so it will be interesting to see how playing 6 mins less a game will affect him. It could be positive or it could lower his point total because he wont have the same amount of chances playing less. Bieksa has a cap hit of 3.75 mil where as Bouwmeester is close to 7 mil. Again, its easy to concede that Bouwmesster is the better player but when you take in account the salary differences that one is getting paid almost double than the other, its not that bad.

I don't see how Bouwmeester is equal to Bieksa. I'm sorry, but did Bieksa's Team Canada invitation get lost in the mail?

Bouwmeester had the top TOI per game last year, playing against the likes of Lecavalier, St. Louis, Staal, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Malkin, Crosby, etc.

Bouwmeester is regarded as one of the best two-way defensemen in the league today. He can score goals and he can keep the puck out of his own end very well.

Meanwhile, Bieksa is frankly just an offensive defenseman who seems to turnover the puck a lot (comparable to Phaneuf last season). Bieksa is currently in his prime, Bouwmeester isn't (he's only 25). 

Stats aren't everything for a defenseman, otherwise someone like Regehr would be regarded as overrated because  he doesn't score.

  

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No sane Canuck fan wants to compare Ehrhoff to Bouwmeester!

The only reason the Bieksa - Bouwmeester comparisons started was because some Vancouver fans thought Calgary fans were treating Jay Bouwmeester like the second coming, and it was the most annoying argument they could come up with. Calgary fans have their own delusional Kipper = Luongo argument.

All I am saying is the Canucks lacked a PP quarterback, speed on the backend and youth on their d-corps. Ehrhoff answered all of those problems for us, and we got him for junk. By the end of yesterday, we became a much better team, and hopefully more likely to defend our division crown.

I'm sorry but we have reason to argue the bolded statement you have written.

For someone like Luongo who is earning almost 7 million (possibly more) per year, and he hasn't won anything, that's being severely overpaid.

I think many Canucks fans are underrating Kiprusoff, basing it all on stats and such. All that matters for the goalie is when he makes the save, not how many saves he makes per night. I believe Kelly Hrudey said this once. He led the league in wins last year, so is that saying he isn't a goalie who can win for his team no matter what kind of game his team plays?

  

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Not at all..... infact im one of the only guys on CDC that praised this signing. I think he a good player and will fit in nicely on your team. Im not sure how someone can read my posts and still come up with me saying Bieksa is better? Im showing how they have comparable stats and why Vancouver fans are ok with the fact we didnt sign him ( although obvioulsy we'd rather have him, but its not the end of the world)

Sorry, I guess I misread your comment a little. I probably shouldn't have quoted your comment.

What I was referring to was the general consensus from Vancouver Canucks fans saying that Bieksa is equal to Bouwmeester.

  

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Did you notice what I was replying to?

I've said many times I like Bouwmeester, even at 6.6 million. On the other hand, I don't understand why it is so hard for Flames fans to admit the Canucks got better by acquiring Christian Ehrhoff, Mathieu Schneider and Brad Lukowich for close to nothing... so far.

Did I ever say that the Canucks didn't win in the Ehrhoff trade? No way José! I'll quote what I said:
Vancouver definitely wins the trade IMO
As for trying to compare Luongo to Bouwmeester, I really don't get where you're going with this conversation. They are two completely different contracts that can't be compared since Luongo is probably being resigned and Bouwmeester is a free agent acquisition. If Darryl Sutter let J-Bo go to free agency, I can assure you that he would be getting offers of $7 000 000+

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I don't know about offence though. I have to say we're pretty equal.

We may have less talent on paper on the offensive side, but we got more grit, heart and determination, stats that can't be measured.

The Flames have never struggled to score goals, so to say we're going to have a pisspoor offence this defence is absolutely wrong.

I guess we'll see October 1st who is the better team.

Go Flames Go!

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This debate about the defense is getting a little out of hand.

Calgary may have the star power, as it were, but the simple fact remains that, all things being equal, the Canucks top 6 put up considerably better numbers than the Flames top 6.

Flames top 6 of Bouwmeester, Phaneuf, Regehr, Giordano, Moss and Pardy combined for 175 points last season.

Canucks top 6 of Bieksa, Edler, Erhoff, Schnieder, Mitchell and Salo put up 202 points last season.

The Canucks have 4, possibly 5, players on defense that could put up 40 points.

The Flames have only 3.

Stats don't tell the whole story, but they do tell a lot.

Its clealy in favor of the Canucks on this issue.

So the Canucks clearly win this debate? Wow you're being very delusional

Putting up points isn't the glory stat for a defenseman. It's keeping the puck out of his own net.

It just amazes when everyone talks about Norris candidates, they all say it should go to someone that's put up points like Mike Green. I'm sorry but Mike Green could play as a forward since he is so lousy defensively in his own end. Chara certainly deserved the Norris last season, since he has a way more complete game.  

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[quote name='Barney_Gumble wrote:


littlereddevil wrote:

small_member']

This debate about the defense is getting a little out of hand.

Calgary may have the star power, as it were, but the simple fact remains that, all things being equal, the Canucks top 6 put up considerably better numbers than the Flames top 6.

Flames top 6 of Bouwmeester, Phaneuf, Regehr, Giordano, Moss and Pardy combined for 175 points last season.

Canucks top 6 of Bieksa, Edler, Erhoff, Schnieder, Mitchell and Salo put up 202 points last season.

The Canucks have 4, possibly 5, players on defense that could put up 40 points.

The Flames have only 3.

Stats don't tell the whole story, but they do tell a lot.

Its clealy in favor of the Canucks on this issue.

So the Canucks 
clearly
win this debate? Wow you're being very delusional

Putting up points isn't the glory stat for a defenseman.
It's keeping the puck out of his own net.

It just amazes when everyone talks about Norris candidates, they all say it should go to someone that's put up points like Mike Green. I'm sorry but Mike Green could play as a forward since he is so lousy defensively in his own end. Chara 
certainly
deserved the Norris last season, since he has a way more complete game.  

I'm still trying to figure out when Moss became a defenseman...What? I'm confused  huh.gif 

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


Wolven wrote:

The_Don']I would agree that the Flames don't need a top flight LW and could easily get by with one of the guys you mentioned. However, the problem could arise on your 2nd line, when you are again filling in spots with borderline top 6 forwards or 3rd line forwards. Having one of your fringe players in your top 6 is no problem, teams do it all the time with success. Detroit with Cleary for example. But having 2 of those guys in your top 6 can pose a problem.

The flames right now have 4 legit top 6 forwards; Iginla, Jokinen, Bourque and Langkow. After that you have a bunch of guys that either have the potnetial to be there (Boyd, Dawes, Backlund) or guys that are just on the fringe (Glencross, Conroy, Moss). The Canucks have been in a similar situation for pretty much the last 3 years. It was Sedin, Sedin, Naslund and Morrison. Then last season it was Sedin, Sedin, Kesler, Demitra (before Sundin). This season it seems that Burrows has stepped up into that role, and I believe we now have 5 of these guys, with just as many knocking on the door, like the Flames. I think having that 5th guy can be crucial, so that you don't have both of your top lines with guys on it that just don't quite belong.

And I'll say this again, just so you don't think I am bashing here. There are always guys that step up and surprise (ala Bourque, Burrows) and take hold of a top 6 role for good. And there are some guys that could conceivably do that on the Flames roster. But it remains to be seen who that will be, if it happens at all. It could be the difference between being out in the first round again, or making a long run in the playoffs.

I agree with the concept of what you are saying. Only having 4 bonafide top 6 players with one of them (Bourque) being suspect in some people's eyes can be cause for concern. For the most part the Flames have been one of those teams that have not really allowed growth from within, particularly in our top 6 forwards. We have always gone out and looked for that Nolan, Cammalleri or Bertuzzi to add to the mix.

Last year the Flames worked pretty effectively with a top 9 that pretty much looked like this:

Cammalleri-Lombardi/Conroy-Iginla

Bourque-Langkow-Bertuzzi

Glencross-Lombardi/Conroy-Moss

Taking that line up to this year:

XXXX-Jokinen-Iginla

Bourque-Langkow-XXXX

Glencross-Conroy-Moss

Plugging a Boyd, Backlund, Glencross or Dawes into that top line spot should allow the line to still be effective. At least as effective as last year when we were rolling with Lombo/Conroy on the line. I really think having a strong centerman like Jokinen will make that line superior to when we had a questionable center but a big scoring winger like Cammi.

The second line loses Bertuzzi which I think is a big chunk of creativity but also a big chunk of turnovers and defensive liability. Moss should be an effective replacement and I think that line should still be productive and from the sounds of Sjostrom he should be an easy replacement for Moss.

What is exciting from my point of view, especially during the offseason, is that we are going to be giving guys like Moss, Glencross, Boyd or Backlund a shot at bigger roles and there are enough of them competing for those spots that I feel they will really go all out to try to be the guy who wins top minutes. It will certainly suck if these guys all fall flat on their faces but realistically one or two of them should be able to really step up.

The main thing that makes it all work though is our strength on D. Having Bouwmeester, Phaneuf, Regehr and Sarich on the blue line will really allow for more options and room for winger mistakes than when Aucoin and Vandermeer were there.

Expecting Moss to replace Bertuzzi's offensive production and expecting Sjostrom to replace Moss's offensive production is a little bit out there if you ask me.Are you aware that we will have Jokinen for a whole season? He'll get probably around 35 goals, which is pretty much replacing Cammalleri's totals.

Bouwmeester replaces Aucoin.

Dawes, Sjostrom and mabye Theo Fleury will replace Bertuzzi.

Goals won't be an issue for Calgary this season. They never have been.

  

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If you consider Jokinen a replacement for Cammalleri... then you've gotta consider a replacement Lombardi (46pts in 59gms - better pts than Bourque).

So then your talking about Dawes and Sjostrom replacing Bertuzzi and Lombardi.

oh, and maybe Fleury... unlikely but ok...

also if you got 3 bodies to hopefully make up the production of 2...  body for body, there's a missing piece of the offensive pie. An overall decrease of forward depth...  I thought this had been established already?

There's an overall downgrade at forward.

Overall the defense is expected to contribute more than they did last yr... Bouwmeester is an attractive offensively capable Dman that should take significant defensive responsibility off of Phaneuf.  If Phaneuf can be used in all the primary offensive situations, and leave the prime defensive responsibility to JBo, Regher and Sarich, he should have his best offensive season yet.  It should make up some of the difference of the lost points upfront.

The Flames total O shouldn't drop too much... but the realistic expectation is some sort of drop.

I know I just realised I forgot mentioning Lombardi's name, but his best production (PPG wise) came with the Coyotes.

Mabye I'm just a bit over realistic with Fleury, but who isn't excited about his return to the NHL?

Flames will still have no issues scoring this season.

  

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Looks like this,

http://fans.flames.nhl.com/topic/32887

Glencross-Conroy-Iginla

Dawes-Langkow-Bourque

Sjostrom-Jokinen-Nystrom

McGrattan-Boyd-Prust

The d-pairings were Bouwmeester-Sarich; Regehr-Phaneuf; Pardy-Giordano and Kronwall-Johnson

They're keeping Regehr-Phaneuf and Dawes-Langkow-Bourque together? I thought that was the whole issue, especially since they are all minus players

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Sorry Don I was wrong to call him 7uongo, Luon5o is much more realistic.

Haha. Can you say deja vu? That's twice Vancouver's given up 5 goals against us this season! laugh.gif

  

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But Bourque has only played 29 games compared to Kesler and Burrow's 36 games. Would it be fair to extrapolate Bourque's stats a bit?

OOOOOOOOO...... Fancy word happy.gif

fancy_schmancy_waffles.jpg

  

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image

http://i46.tinypic.com/jjn52a.jpg

It may only last a couple hrs, but how awesome is this!

Just crushing expectations!

Points

  Player PTS
Complete Leaders
0039.gif 1. Joe ThorntonSJ 57
2. Henrik SedinVAN 55
3. Marian GaborikNYR 52
4. Alex OvechkinWSH 50
5. Sidney CrosbyPIT 48

Not so fast.... grin.gif

  

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


Flame111 wrote:

The_Don']Anyways, back to what this thread is
really
about. Canucks fans chosing which stats to present based on how bad they make the Flames look.

Today's feature: Goals.

Iginla - 21

H. Sedin - 20

Burrows - 20

Never thought you'd see that, did ya? Iginla has more than twice the career goals of Henrik and Burrows combined. Yet, here we are.

Unfortunately I am not allowed to comment on this and defend good old Iggy and why this might be BUT hey DON how about a friendly bet. Iggy will finish the season with more goals than both Sedin and Burrows, should give you a 2-1 odds advantage over me with 2 players. 

If you win I admit that you are a brilliant hockey mind. If I win you admit that I am just a brilliant mind. Sound fair...
smokin.gif

No. Not because I do or don't think it will happen, but because I neither gain nor lose anything in this bet. Do you think that my ego is so fragile that you saying such a thing would make my day? And on the flip side, so you think me saying such a thing would me make feel like I had lost? No.

I do think, however that Iginla will finish with more goals. Henrik, since Daniel has returned, has been on a more Henrik-like goal scoring pace. He will probably finish with 30, top out at 35. Burrows, though he is playing great right now, will not keep up this pace. He is not at the same level as Iginla, and will likely top out at the same as his linemate. I expect him to hit 30, could top out at 35. Iginla, if he doesn't score 35, that would be a greatly unsuccessful season for him. I think he will finish between 35-40. But I will take a bet of Sedin + Sedin will finish with more points than Iginla + your choice. Just like the good ol' Sedins vs. Iggy/Tanguay thread from back in the day.

   Bourque's on pace for about 25 goals, Iginla's on pace for about 37 goals, that makes a total of 62.

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Henrik with 4 point lead again in Art Ross race. On pace for 115 points. Daniel is on pace for 83 points despite missing 18 games already. Compare that to Iginla's 71 pace and Bourque's 69 point pace.

Errr well if this team starts putting the puck in the back of the net more often, I think Iginla could get back into the 90 point range. But that's just being optimistic.

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Refs 3, Oilers 2

Sorry but those last two goals on the PP for the Canucks were the result of two very soft calls by the refs. No way should Grebeshkov have gotten that penalty in OT. Should have been diving the other way.

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Where the Canucks be without the Sedins? Probably in the same position in the standings as us. But give them credit, they're playing well, the Sedins are a definite steal at 6M a piece. Too bad they didn't go to free agency in the summer, I would have loved to see them playing in a different conference.

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[quote name='pross wrote:


Goatwhore90']You wanna know a funny stat? the canucks have never won a stanley cup in a 40 year excistance.

/laughter.

Will win one before you win another because the flames are awful and Sutter is a brutal GM.

  You're like a really bad mosquito. I guess I gotta get out the troll spray..... eyes.gif

258Troll_spray.jpg

  

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