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Discussion & Debate Thread: Flames and Canucks

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The Nucks just went up 5-4 on the Avs in a huge comeback win. It feels weird to be happy with Nuck victories but the worst case scenario in these games in a tie where three points gets distributed instead of just two.

A clean win by Nucks allows us to make ground on the Avs who are still the team I pick to have the wheels come off. Go Nucks ?

Edit: 6-4 Nucks, good for us to make ground on the Avs.

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[quote name='cross16 wrote:


Kristian_Huselius']Wow Kessler signs for 6 years $5million per (as per TSN).

Makes the Bourque deal look like a steal. Burrows must be choked.

I disagree. I'd trade Bourque straight up for kesler any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Kesler is hovering around PPG for a center, which being an extremely well rounded hockey player and still improving. Whitle I don't think 5 mill per is a steal, is very good value for a player that can do what he does from the center ice position.

I dont' like the Canucks either, but thats a solid deal.

  I agree, I would place the Kesler signing in about the same category as the Stajan signing, percentage wise, just a little above fair market value. 4 million would have been good value, 4.5 million fair market value. In the Nucks case though, even at a tad above market value it doesn't matter. They signed the Sedins due to their connected at the hip status at very good value and they got Burrows signed long term for next to nothing for what he does. The worst contract the Nucks have is Luongo which I think is the highest Cap hit for any goalie in the league ? No way he is the best Goalie in the league. But it doesn't matter, there are teams who have Cap issues but the Canucks are not one of them. They can afford to over pay a bit on players they feel are important to them. 

I hate the Canucks with a passion so don't get me wrong but we have 32 year old Langkow signed for another 2 years at a 4.5 million Cap hit. If you could magically dump Langkow for Kesler, would you not pay this price for Kesler at age 24? 

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[quote name='DL44 wrote:


bigchief']8-3 Kings?
eek.gif
I never saw any of the game, Luongo stayed in for the entire game? Did he just fall apart or more of a team fail? Why the heck is Wellwood scoring goals all of a sudden? Contract year for him?

So... many... brain... farts....!

You couldnt really blame Luongo too much on most of the goals except the last one.

lots of deflections, screens, and nice goals. 

1 logical reason  is Raycroft was gonna play tomorrow... might as well keep him fresh.

Personally think the main reason he stayed in was because of the number of times AV has pulled in the last month (4times i think).  I don't think he or Luongo wanted #5...  logic said take him out after the 5th goal or 2nd period... but they decided to suck it up...  probably didn't expect a 3 goal 3rd.

on a plus side - That Raymond-Sedin-Kesler line ended up looking pretty good after Burrows went down.  at least we know a good mix if Danny misses any more.Luon8o - DL44 seriously has the homer glasses on. 8 goals on 28 shots ? If it was 40-50 shots you may be able to cling to that. That was a terrible game for Luon8o. I didn't watch the whole game but I did carefully watch the highlights. (Note: I do not judge Luo with the same standard I would Alex Auld or Curtis McE with the Ducks now, I expect tenders like Luo and Kipper to make the harder saves)

(1) bad choice with the poke check but (borderline goal). 
(2) responsible for this goal because not only does he give the rebound, (which is ok if it is directed to the side) but he gives a rebound right up the slot for the shot. (bad goal)
(3) too deep in the net and slow but (borderline goal)
(4) nothing he could do, screened and perfect shot. More of a screw up on the D. (good goal - meaning nothing Luo could do)
(5) PP goal but cripes it wasn't even a real shot, the King player totally fanned on it barely giving it enough force to cross the line AND he slid it under Luo, Luo could have got this one. bad goal

(6) 2 on 1 but rule one is the tender takes the shooter, Luo cheats for the pass and goes down too early. bad goal
(7) This is a good goal, nothing he could do. Good tip, in fact I think it was a double deflection. good goal 
(8) This one was the worst of the game, he may as well have taken the puck and put it in his own net. horrible goal

I say 4 bad goals, 2 borderlines and 2 good goals, the score could have been 3-2 Nucks. On the positive, wow Kesler has a great shoot. The Kings look like they are totally ready for the playoffs, the Canucks, not at all... They play like that, they will be out no matter who they play, Kings, Wings, or Preds...

It is really strange watching a Nuck game after so many Flames games, I just take for granted our Defence at this point, the Nucks for all intents and purposes are a defensive disaster. Strong up front, good goaltender, nothing in the D. The Flames strong on D, good goaltender, better now on the Offense but not great. Personally after watching the reel on that game I can not see the Nucks going past the first round, no matter who they play. The wheels are simply too loose at a key moment in the season. 

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


bigchief']I tried finding the CBC show that aired yesterday I've been told? All I can find is this though:

Anyone have the CBC link?

Wow. Was that written by Flame111? HAHA.

Beside being a poorly written article blog, it is also fairly inaccurate. Comes across as someone who simply hates the Canucks (see above), and over-dramatizes everything in the Canucks history.

HA HA - Very funny Don - For the record I would like to tell you I was actually pretty neutral about the Canucks before this season and before using the message board. I was aware of their fan "issues" of course but chalked it up to a few bad apples, like most people I imagine. I was far more of an anti-Oilers guy because I am older and had to suffer as a young lad through the dynasty era of the Oilers. Plus I had decades to listen to Oiler fans gloat about their 5 Cups when they were still fairly freshly engraved.

As I began to frequent this message board, the frequent appearance of Canuck's trolls with ugly and nasty comments here slowly started to build up. They just far out numbered the polite Nuck posters who would talk hockey rationally. I also in the beginning briefly tried to comment on the CDC board in a very balanced and polite way, given my handle I think you can guess how that went over. It sure surprised me at the time though as a first time visitor, it didn't matter what I said. The typical nasty one sentence response you get there came from a dozen other posters instantly.

But the tipping point for me really occurred with the green industrial laser in Kipper's face, I'm sure you remember how I just lost it at that time. If the guy had been arrested or caught or something it would have helped. I find it very hard to believe that any effort was even put into it. We know from the picture that you can probably narrow it down to 20-30 season ticket holders in the sitting area. It was at this tipping point that the Canucks "fans" replaced the Oilers fans as my most despised and I just don't think I will be going back. Oilers fans are sometimes rude and arrogant but they do not go to the lengths of rudeness that your trolls do nor do they take the extreme lengths of actually interfering in the game by throwing trash, towels or whatever on the ice.

This latest example being the racist comments the CDC board had to address as well on Buff from these "fans". Over and over this sub-class of your fan base damages your franchise name with other fans in the league.

I also think the tag of worst fans in hockey can be objectively supported by the factual history of your 'fans" behavior regardless of how the author feels about the team.

If you continue to downplay the issue as a legitimate Canucks fan that is up to you. I see the CDC board often has a lot more posters speak up now than it used to to put these ugly "fans" in their place when they make ugly comments but whatever, your team. I personally find that encouraging because I know ultimately the only ones who can really get those ugly Nuck trolls to comment with more maturity is the real Canucks fans who chastise them, other teams fans saying anything to them is like throwing gas on the fire...

I try not to group all of you in the same boat but because of this sub-class of so called "fans" the Canucks as a team year after year earn themselves more anti-fans from other cities. They certainly converted me this year from being against the Oilers no matter what to against the Canucks... Those two teams play each other (and I still can not believe I am saying this but I am) I would cheer for the Oilers to win now...

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


bigchief']I tried finding the CBC show that aired yesterday I've been told? All I can find is this though:

Anyone have the CBC link?

Wow. Was that written by Flame111? HAHA.

Beside being a poorly written article blog, it is also fairly inaccurate. Comes across as someone who simply hates the Canucks (see above), and over-dramatizes everything in the Canucks history.

And what is inaccurate in the Blog ?

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1.

The beginning of Vancouver fans turning into the worst in hockey was the
.

Well, Vancouver must have been the only city to riot over hockey, right? WRONG.

- Montreal, April 2008, after eliminating Boston in the first round.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJLGMMBuzhQ

(youtube "montreal hockey riot" and you will find MUCH more"

- Edmonton, May 2006 after a win in the SCF

http://www.canada.com/new...6-409c-920d-811a384ea601

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwT2Gzv1KmU

Not to mention Montreal again after the Richard Riots

2.

screaming out "Woooo" after goals, made famous by wrestler Ric Flair, from North Carolina.  It was popularized in hockey circles by
fans...then Vancouver fans stole it without any geographical association with Vancouver or tradition whatsoever.

OMG! How dare they use audio to get the fans to sing/chant/verbalize something at a hockey game! Despicable, right?

I know Boston also does the same thing. And I can guarantee that most other arenas do something similar. Chicago when the all stand and clap to "Chelsea Dagger" is one example. I haven't [aid a lot of attention to what each arena does to celebrate goals, but yelling WOOOOOO is far from anything to do with having  the "worst fans". Especially when it's the Team/GM Place that does it.

3.

they've taken to yelling out "Loooo" after every save
makes, even routine stops on dump-ins and seventy-five foot wrist shots.

OMG Canucks fans are just awful for cheering a player when he does something! Terrible, just terrible.

We used to do this with Lui Passaglia as well. I wonder if he was the most hated kicker in all of the CFL. hmmmmm

4.

The Canucks also had the audacity to retire the number seven.  Not Cliff Ronning, which would have been questionable, no, they chose to
.

Failed marketing ploy. Nothing else. NEXT!

Also, another thing that was originated from the organization, yet it is the fans fault. hmmmm

5.

This is a fanbase, that as the picture above shows,
.  Bertuzzi,
, sucker-punched a player from behind, breaking his neck and ending his career.  Canucks fans rallied for that man.  It's one thing to tacitly approve of what Bertuzzi did by ignoring the story or the end result, but to rally by his side during his court appearance is beyond the pale.

Let me ask the blogger a question. Let's say he has a kid. This kid grows up and gets in a bar fight in which he sucker-punches a guy and said guy breaks his neck. Would the blogger a) disown the child because what he did was wrong, leaving him to deal with the repercussions be himself or B) stand by him and support him, while not condoning his actions, but understanding that people make mistakes and know that he needs support through the rough times? I am not a parent, so I don't know, maybe some parents out there can shed some light on the subject?

Honeslty, the guy did something bad. Very bad. I don't think by supporting Bertuzzi through his tough times is at all the same as saying what he did was right. H served his time to the league. The legal battles are ongoing 6 years later. What would have happened had the entire city turned it's back on Bert?

6.

Vancouver is also a place where
, and have no one turn him in.  An entire section, and at the very least an entire row, of GM Place likely knew the identity of the perpetrator, and sat on their hands and did nothing as a fellow fan attempted to cause permanent damage to two different goaltenders.

I guess this is where Flame111 comes in. Do we know the guy wasn't found and ejected/arrested/fined? I guess we probably would have heard about it. Though I am not convinced the entire section or even row would have known exactly who it was. I mean, how big is a laser pointer? It's like the size of a chapstick. He could have easily concealed it in his hand and shone the light without even the guy next to him noticing, considering everybody's attention would have been on the ice ta the time.

7.

!  That's right, after a single playoff series win, the city immediately declares a day for the team. This wasn't a Stanley Cup, or even a trip to the finals, this was an expected victory by the favored team in a three versus six playoff matchup.

Yeah, it was silly. But it was done from within the mayor's office. It was not decided by the fans. Most fans agreed it was silly and premature.

I like how he qualifies his article at the end by saying some fans are OK, right after he finished generalizing the entire fan base. It's like the hockey fan-bashing equivelant of "I'm not racist, but..."

Anyways, this is a blog. I could right one about how Flames fans are the worst and could come up with just as many half-assed arguments and incidents involving a few idiots. But that would just be a big waste of time, just like writing this article was for the "author".

Since you asked for a rebuttal Don - I'll comment but I think your scramble for a defense pretty much speaks for itself... tongue.gif If you don't want to read all of my post which I strongly suspect you don't a lot of the time, at least make sure you check out the last video in my post... happy.gif

Bias Drivel ? Hardly - they are factual events after all and I think the point of the article is to explain why Vancouver "fans" are not liked by other hockey fans and considered the worst in hockey. Other cities fans act dumb sometimes as well but Vancouver fans do it ALL. Riot, fight in the stands, throw garbage, attack players, they do it all and they do it more often than any other team's fans in the NHL...

1. Hockey Riots - Just because other cities riot over hockey as well is NOT an excuse for ANY other city to do it ever. You are correct in pointing out that Montreal certainly has a more frequent claim on this behavior and one that it goes back much further in history. I don't like your theme of looking for other examples of bad behavior in other cities and using that to defend the Nucks sub-class of fans behavior. It is always wrong to do it and there are plenty of examples of fans peacefully celebrating series wins or Cup wins without riots. Calgary throughout 2004, the Pens of last years Cup win etc etc. 

2 & 3. WOO & LOO from the fans - This is just annoying more than anything else. If Vancouver had a clean track record it probably would not even come up BUT because the Nuck "fans" have a whole list of other items it becomes a small straw that breaks the Camel's back. You can not afford to add other items to the list and that is essentially what this Woo and Loo thing does, a small thing that seems bigger because of all the other crap. 

4. Retiring #7 for the Fans - Ironically, I actually get what the Nucks as a organization were trying to do with this. They know they have problem fans and through this venture were trying to instill and encourage good behavior not bad behavior. As a business they do not want to publicly chastise their customers and they do not want to stifle cheering for the team. Tough task and a fine line to walk. This one was an example of something that failed, telling bad fans they are good because you want them to be good was more than anything something that provoked laughter from the rest of the hockey fans in the NHL and something that Nuck fans good and bad did not buy. The point is that the fact that it occurred should be more evidence of the Nucks being the worst, not the best fans in hockey...

5. Big Bert and Steve Moore - I am actually probably more sympathetic to this event than most hockey fans. I watched the game, I know the context of that game. I am aware that Naslund was run prior to Bert taking action etc. I've played hockey, I know how these things get on ice level and at the end of the day I felt sorry for Bert more than anything, I don't think he ever intended to hurt Moore BUT I would never have gotten a sign and stood outside the court room defending Big Bert. eyes.gif That is getting to the point where you have to wonder if these Nuck fans have any individual thought at all. It reminds me of the tea party protests here in the States. Some Nuck fans get into the mob mentality and can not see the forest for the trees, they cheer no matter what. It isn't a question of turning your back on the team, you never do that BUT sometimes an individual player does something on or off the ice where you have to "not turn your back" bur rather step back from the situation. Blind support for a player is not always cool.

6. Green Industrial Laser blinding opposing Players - I am not going to elaborate because I have written volumes here on this board about it. It is probably the single worst thing a spectator can do at a sporting event and it happened first in Vancouver and even led to a Copy Cat incident at an Atlanta Thrashers game later in the season...

7. Vancouver Canucks Day - Again, like point 4 and the lame promotion of retiring a jersey # for the fans. The city, the Canucks organization and so forth know they have an issue on their hands with classless fans and they are trying to head it off. Trying to provide a kind of social release valve with things like this so things do not erupt later. It is a fine line to walk. But it comes off as really lame in front of all the other hockey fans in the NHL and even for Nucks fans themselves but I understand why they do this. It is again a reflection of how bad the fans are that they have to do these things if you read between the lines...

I'm not done though - I would like to continue to add factual events to the list - that did not get mention in the article.

8. Throwing trash on the ice - Like riots Vancouver does not hold a patent on this. It has occurred in other cities but look at the flip side MOST hockey fans do NOT do this. It is really one of the worst ways of insulting your own team, it occurs on home ice etc. In the majority of hockey cities it does NOT occur. I also think Nuck fans are the ones most easily provoked to do this. They did it after a bad loss at home to the Hawks, not even one which clinched the series. Look at the circumstances of Boston fans doing it, up 3-0 in the series, up 3-0 in game 7 and Bruin fans lost it as their team choked. I am NOT making excuses for Bruins fans, it is still a classless act but far less provokes Nuck fans to do the same thing. 

9. Fighting in the stands and no security in GM place - Again this occurs in other rinks and you can find clips of it for other teams as well but what makes it especially bad in Vancouver? Other fans cheer it on, it is more brutal and there is no security coming to the scene. 

Look at time 30-32 secs where the goon actually takes the guys head and rams it into the metal bar...

and there is no shortage of examples http://www.youtube.com/wa...QlXw&feature=related

Do fans fight in other rinks, yes. Look at this Bruins fans fight in the stands, what's the difference? Security is on the scene in less than 24 seconds in Boston. In GM place in Vancouver they do not even show up...  

Do these Canucks fans come into the Saddledome in Calgary and try to do the same thing, you bet they do. What happens though ? Other Flames fans chastise the Flame fan to sit down and not a punch is thrown. The Nuck jerk ends up walking out and no violence occurs... 

10. Racist comments about Buff from the Hawks - Yet another line clearly crossed by the Nuck sub-class "fans" After Buff lite Luo up for a hat trick racist comments littered Twitter and the hockey boards. Kudos to CDC mods for quickly addressing the situation at the time but the fact that it occurred was shocking. Flames fans are often labelled as the big rednecks but I was stunned to read those comments on the CDC board after the game before the Mods could take them down and I didn't think any gutter comments on that Board could surprise me anymore. 

I could go on but I won't, 10 points is enough to get the drift, I could state even more but I won't. The Nucks have a sub-section of really bad fans which are clearly far larger than any other hockey team in the NHL. They are the worst hockey fans in the world because of them. 

At the end of the day I know that the only ones who can correct it, are the legitimate Canucks fans who act with Class. For the record I am a little encouraged to see that the CDC board does have more Nuck posters chastising classless posters for their comments than it used to and their mods are trying their best. I hope the Canucks organization takes a stronger no tolerance stand with "bad fans". Instead of trying to walk a line of fan promotions / celebrations which come across as lame and ineffective. They should address it as bad behavior will not be tolerated and send a clear and strong no tolerance message, most legitimate Canucks fans do not want to be associated with these classless Nuckleheads anyway.  

It would nice if the Nucks could actually make history by having classy fans... happy.gif Look at this example of a lone Hawk fan in Game 6 in GM place trying to celebrate his team's win in eliminating the Nucks...

 

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Wow Flame111, way to pretty much paraphrase the entire article.

I am not going to get into a pissing match with you. You won't convince me and I won't convince you. More than half the stuff you argued has nothing to do with the fans. Canucks fans suck because security at GM Place is poor? Strong logic.

When security does not clamp down on bad fans they grow in number, so it is part of the issue. Bad behavior is allowed to fester and grow. I'm surprised I have to spell that out to you. What should be one numb nut taken out by security is one numb nut who a hundred other potential numb nuts see getting away with it, hence the potential numb nuts think to themselves, well if he can get away with it so can I etc. Instead of having one Nucklehead your lax security allows them to grow game after game because of lax security. In fact if your security in GM place was much more pro-active you may be able to drop to somewhere in the top five worst hockey fans instead of the far and away leader of worst hockey fans. 

Come on Don, you know you don't have a leg to stand on in this debate. Security could do more about the bad behavior in the stands and they don't and the youtube clips are the evidence. Even the green laser thing, I fully expected the culprit to be caught at the time and an example made of him, instead nothing. 

I addressed the issues raised in the article as you did and even added more points that were not mentioned in it. And you challenged me to do it. tongue.gif 

I also do not see the Nucks organization and the fans as being completely separate on the issue. They have a conditional relationship obviously. If the Nucks organization was less tolerant (more security) you would have less bad behavior and if the fans did not have bad behavior you would have less lame Nucks promotional events etc.

Anyways you and I could go round and round on the issue, I am not sure why you even bother to try and defend this sub-section of Nucklehead fans that you have, most don't. It is true that all teams probably have a chunk of bad fans but my claim has only been that the Nucks have a larger % of bad apples than any other team and hence because of this fact they are the worst hockey fans. That is it and there is a lot of examples to back that up as the article highlights. It isn't even really a debate worthy issue because it is a known fact for everyone outside of Vancouver, even a lot of Nuck fans acknowledge the problem of their significant sub-section of Nucklehead fans. 

Here's to hoping it gets better in the future and changes as legitimate Nuck fans will hopefully start doing what Flames fans in Calgary do when some drunk fool stands up and starts berating someone else. Tell him to sit down and go get security...

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[quote name='DL44 wrote:


Flame111 wrote:

The_Don']Anyways, back to what this thread is
really
about. Canucks fans chosing which stats to present based on how bad they make the Flames look.

Today's feature: Goals.

Iginla - 21

H. Sedin - 20

Burrows - 20

Never thought you'd see that, did ya? Iginla has more than twice the career goals of Henrik and Burrows combined. Yet, here we are.

Unfortunately I am not allowed to comment on this and defend good old Iggy and why this might be BUT hey DON how about a friendly bet. Iggy will finish the season with more goals than both Sedin and Burrows, should give you a 2-1 odds advantage over me with 2 players. 

If you win I admit that you are a brilliant hockey mind. If I win you admit that I am just a brilliant mind. Sound fair...
smokin.gif

this was from Jan 14th..

To 111's credit, he did admit a couple posts later he didn't favor Iggy to win this one.

To don's discredit, he didn't take the bet... grin.gifhappy.gif Yeah I baited Don with a bet that I didn't think I would win because I wanted to see if he would put a bet where his mouth was but he didn't show up. 

Iggy ended the season with 32 goals

H Sedin / D Sedine both ended with 29 goals but Don would have won the bet with Burrows who ended the season with 35 goals. Except he didn't take the bet...

I did not expect Iggy to win because despite his strong goal scoring history it was clear to me that the Flames had shifted gears to a more defensive game and Iggy was just not in the grove, the scoring problem in Calgary was evident early. Meanwhile in Vancouver they were lighting the red light all over the place. 

The teams finished with Vancouver scoring the second most goals in the NHL at 268 and Calgary finishing 2nd last only scoring 201. Not even Jarome could change that tendency. 

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I am not sure I like the way the debate is currently framed bottom up from stats. 

If you want to attempt the very difficult process of comparing two players at opposite ends of the spectrum in position. I think you have to go top down and then at the end place a stat expectation for them "maybe" and draw your conclusion. I think the proper way of framing the question is who is more important for their team to have a bounce back season.

(1) Team Strength - If you are serious in your analysis you are going to admit that the Canucks on paper are a proven stronger team. If you lined up pundits you probably would have the vast majority placing the Canucks ahead of the Flames in the standings next year. Having said that does not mean that is what will happen, it just recognizes the current situation and importance of what player needs to bounce back for their teams success the most. The Canucks were already a strong team that made it to the second round of the playoffs and they have only tweaked stronger at this point to address what was a glaring weakness, clearly revealed for all in their playoff exit - a complete lack of D depth. 

The Point - Luongo just doesn't matter that much in the regular season where a 'bounce back' will really matter for him is the playoffs where he is getting a reputation of imploding with 5+ goal games and that is unacceptable for a goalie in his pay tier. Iggy's bounce back season will be integral to the Flames success next year in the regular season. If The Calgary Experiment, as it is being called (Tangs - Joker - Iggy) fails the Flames are in serious trouble. If Luongo even muddles along with a mid-level 2-3 million dollar goaltending performance for the year, the Nucks will still be in the playoffs, may not win the Cup but they will still make the playoffs. 

Advantage - Luo (who care if he plays to his salary - it doesn't really matter, at this point the Nucks are a proven strong team to get in the playoffs even if he doesn't. )

(2) Captains - A good spot to compare Iggy and Luo is the fact they are both Captains and their leadership. I don't think most will debate that Iggy is the best Captain in the league or at the very least top 5. While I don't doubt Luo's character and respect from his teammates and all the rest of that but I have said for years that a Goaltender is simply someone who can not be the Captain on your team. If you consider Luo the exception, as the Nucks clearly do, than the responsibility is clearly on Luo to get it together and perform his leadership responsibility as Captain with great skill and at no cost to his goaltending performance. 

Advantage Iggy - polled by NHL players as the best Captain in the NHL, nuff said. 

(3) Team Chemistry - As a Leader and someone looking for a bounce back season as a Captain your single greatest contribution to the team may not be in your stats at all. It may be in your ability to get your team to gel, to stay strong as a team in the bad times, to have faith in each other, morale, etc. Despite giving the nod to Iggy as a better Captain - Luo has the advantage of a team that has remained mostly intact, one which knows each other well and one in which the forward ranks are lethal and on literal cruise control. An enviable set of Top 6 in forwards that know each other well and most teams would be more than happy to have. 

The Flames in contrast did not tweek in 2010 they made major changes from the highest tier player to the lowest. Iggy has a greater challenge here to get this team geled and going than Luo does. 

Advantage - Luo

Who is it more important for their team to have a bounce back season ? I think it is pretty conclusive the Iggy has to lead the charge for the Offense on the Flames. If the Calgary Flames experiment fails, that will be it for the Flames. If Luo mails it in the Nucks they won't win the Cup but the chances of them missing the playoffs is very low even if he does...

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Okay, in my opinion this shouldn't be a debate...yet. Both teams have been slightly made-over and it's going to be a battle for the top spot in the NW. Pre-season hasn't even started yet, so right now it's just on paper I guess...

Anyways, my point is that we won't know which D is better until the season starts so this debate is a little early, but that's just my opinion

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[quote name='Barney_Gumble wrote:


small_member']Flames top 6 of Bouwmeester, Phaneuf, Regehr, Giordano,
Moss
and Pardy combined for 175 points last season.

This.

Aucoin & Vandermeer are also missing, but those are minor details...

Don't forget about Sarich. Also doesn't account for the fact that Giordano missed the final 25 games or so because of a shoulder injury, not to mention that Bouwmeester wasn't on the Flames roster so including his point totals in Florida is totally irrelevant...

  

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That's a good one DL. I think Bouwmeester and Bieksa will both average 2nd on their respective teams in terms of average PP time, as I would think that Phaneuf and Schneider will be counted on as their teams true PP quarterbacks - barring injuries of course. As such, Bieksa's ice time may take a slight drop from last year, but I don't necessarily think that will result in him acquiring significantly less points. Keep in mind that as the #1 PP defenseman, the load was all on his shoulders. With the addition of Schneider - no doubt an upgrade as PP QB, I would expect the Canucks PP% to improve and I wouldn't be surprised to see Bieksa's numbers improve in the same manner. I don't want to say that Bieksa will "leech" points off of Schneider, but simply playing alongside him on the PP improves Bieksa's chances of being factored into the scoring plays. Basically what I'm getting at is that if Bieksa was able to amass 25 PP points running the show on his own, imagine how his totals will improve while toeing the blueline with Schneider.

While the addition of Bouwmeester instantly improves the Flames PP, neither he or Phaneuf is on the same level as Schneider when it comes to running a PP. I hate to say it, and I think it will be very close, but I'd take Bieksa in this one. Excuse me while I go barf now.

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Mikael Backlund VS Cody Hodgson

Fundamental skills are in favour of Backlund.  Two-way play is in favour of Hodgson.  Backlund is faster, Hodgson is stronger.  Hodgson possesses leadership (captained a team Canada junior squad that included Tavares and Evander Kane) and led said tournament in scoring with 5 goals and 11 assists in 6 games on a stacked Canadian squad.  Backlund was second on team Sweden with 5 goals and 2 assists, and was considered one of Sweden's top three players.  Hodgson was the CHL player of the year (though Backlund was the WHL/CHL player of the week April 13-19).  Backlund has more potential, but Hodgson is more developed.

Hodgson > Backlund

...

for now.

Personally, I don't watch enough junior hockey to form an educated opinion in comparing Hodgson and Backlund. In fact, I've never even seen Hodgson play, and the one time I have seen Backlund in action was in his NHL debut with the Flames last season.

In comparing their resumes it would appear that Hodgson is by far the better player, as he is much more decorated than Backlund. However, Hodgson became a dominant player in a league of teenagers and very young adults, whereas Backlund spent his "junior" days playing in a professional league with grown men where he was likely always on the younger and smaller side. Similarly, it could be argued that when compared on an even playing surface at the 2008 WJC, Hodgson was clearly the better player as he led the entire tournament in scoring, but the other side of the coin is that Canada is a perennial powerhouse in that tournament and was clearly the more talented team. 

When you factor in things like these it makes it difficult to fairly assess where each player is in terms of development in comparison with each other. Both players will be given every opportunity to stick with their respective NHL teams out of training camp this month, so hopefully they both make it and we can see them compete on an absolutely level playing field.

  

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That's a fair assesment DL, but Boyd wasn't entirely invisible...I sure noticed him when he put a perfect one timer at an open net about 5 feet high and it turned into a rush back the other way. Or that other time when he missed the net by about 10 feet. But that was it.

You're right about Dawes too, didn't really notice him on the second unit, that line looked to be all Bourque and Langkow.

And I couldn't agrre more about Moss, totally out of place on the top line. Not only that but as a natural RW he had a hell of a time playing the other side. Which is weird because his stats sheet says he shoots left, so playing on the left wing shouldn't be that hard of an adjustment. He's making/accepting passes on his forehand after all. I could understand if he shot right, switching to left wing feels unnatural as all of a sudden everything's on your backhand and it feels like you're always facing the boards coming up the ice. At any rate, he didn't have a good game, but neither did any part of the top line for that matter. I thought Iginla was Calgary's worst player. Thanks for coming out Cap'n.

Which Kesler embellishments are you talking about? I don't recall seeing any by him. I did notice Samuelsson take a slash on the leg near the benches, the way he fell and looked at the ref it looked like a big dive...

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[quote name='hkiitay wrote:


hurtin_albertan']That's a fair assesment DL, but Boyd wasn't entirely invisible...I sure noticed him when he put a perfect one timer at an open net about 5 feet high and it turned into a rush back the other way. Or that other time when he missed the net by about 10 feet. But that was it.

You're right about Dawes too, didn't really notice him on the second unit, that line looked to be all Bourque and Langkow.

And I couldn't agrre more about Moss, totally out of place on the top line. Not only that but as a natural RW he had a hell of a time playing the other side. Which is weird because his stats sheet says he shoots left, so playing on the left wing shouldn't be that hard of an adjustment. He's making/accepting passes on his forehand after all. I could understand if he shot right, switching to left wing feels unnatural as all of a sudden everything's on your backhand and it feels like you're always facing the boards coming up the ice. At any rate, he didn't have a good game, but neither did any part of the top line for that matter. I thought Iginla was Calgary's worst player. Thanks for coming out Cap'n.

Which Kesler embellishments are you talking about? I don't recall seeing any by him. I did notice Samuelsson take a slash on the leg near the benches, the way he fell and looked at the ref it looked like a big dive...

Judging from your logo, I'm guessing you're a flames' fan, so you must have seen Moss play at some point.  Moss shoots right, pay no attention to how he's listed.

And you're wrong, Dawes had a great game, Langkow was the one on that line who was invisible.

And Iginla wasn't the Flames' worst player.  Kronwall was.  Iginla was second.

And as for Boyd, it was more like 10 cm, not 10 feet.  He was good, if not spectacular.

  

1. I got his incorrect info from the Flames home page. I wasn't positive if he was a right handed shot, and since I like to be credible in my posts I thought it better to go with his profile info on his team's site than my own memory.

2. I strongly disagree with your opinion regarding Langkow. I thought he had a great game. Personally, I thought that he and Bourque carried that line and I didn't really notice Dawes with them. Disagree with my opinion all you like, but you're out of line telling me that I'm wrong.

3. Another matter of opinion. But we're comparing the play of the team captain, leader, example setter, top offensive gun, etc. and a 7th defenseman who was only in the lineup because of an injury to a regular, playing his first game with a brand new team. I'll cut him a LOT more slack than I will Iginla. Besides, I thought he played a pretty safe game. Seems to me that the common opinion all over the board is that Iggy played a crappy game, but this is the first complaint I've seen of Kronwall's play.

4. I was exaggerating, don't split hairs with me over by how much he missed the net. The point was that he shanked a golden opportunity on a great set up and those are opportunities he has to bury if he wants to move up the depth chart. Besides that play, I didn't notice Boyd out there too much.

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The Canuck puck luck hasn't been there? Is this why seemingly every Cancuks highlight package includes at least one goal per game coming by way of Burrows' !+%, Raymond's foot, or a defenceman's intentional floater through a slew of legs and sticks?

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


agulati']I really hope the canucks improve as the season goes on. There is no fun in a one-sided rivalry.

Is that why the Oilers are always so grumpy?

Partially, but keep in mind they have to live in Edmonton. That would make any sane person grumpy.

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


hurtin_albertan']So did John Ashbridge watch a Bruins game recently or something?

?

They've been doing the "whoo!" thing after goal announcements in Boston since at least last season, I just noticed that's a recent addition to the Canucks goal announcements.

  

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


hurtin_albertan wrote:

The_Don']?

They've been doing the "whoo!" thing after goal announcements in Boston since at least last season, I just noticed that's a recent addition to the Canucks goal announcements.

  
I see. The Canucks have been doing it since the start of the season I think. but what does it have to do with John Ashbridge? It's not his call.

BTW, is it Rick Flair? It sounds awfully similar.

Yeah you're right, likely not his call...could be though? Whatever, I just used his name because he's the PA voice.

I thought it sounded like it was Ashbridge who was doing it...you think its dubbed?

  

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Ladd crosschecked Kesler in the face when he wasnt looking in the playoffs last year.

oh speaking of the canucks vs chicago game6 loss, at least our team showed up laugh.gif

and offtopic but whatever happened to nfkevin?

   lol, how do you cross check a guy in the face if he's not looking? 

I usually don't get into these types of things regarding the past and silly pissing matches between Flames and Canucks fans, but I feel the need to defend the Flames in this case. What team was there to show up? Bourque, Regehr, Phaneuf, Giordano, (probably forgetting a few) were all out; Langkow playing with 2 injured hands, Sarich playing on a broken foot...The team was completely decimated by injuries, and Chicago definitely didn't beat the best Flames team that could have been involved. Despite all of that, they still managed to outshoot Chicago 44-16 in the game 6 loss. That's pretty good for a team that didn't show up in my opinion. Now I'm not going to say the Canucks didn't show up, I didn't watch the game, but they did get lit up with 7 goals against...If the Flames didn't show up, what can be said about the Canucks?

As for nfkevin, he got into it with codes early in the season about being positive and such, they had a big internet fight and kevin said codes has driven everyone away with all his positive bs, and said he would be doing the same. Haven't heard from him since.

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