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Discussion & Debate Thread: Flames and Canucks

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


hurtin_albertan wrote:

Canucker4Life']Ladd crosschecked Kesler in the face when he wasnt looking in the playoffs last year.

oh speaking of the canucks vs chicago game6 loss, at least our team showed up
laugh.gif

and offtopic but whatever happened to nfkevin?

   lol, how do you cross check a guy in the face if he's not looking? 

I usually don't get into these types of things regarding the past and silly pissing matches between Flames and Canucks fans, but I feel the need to defend the Flames in this case. What team was there to show up? Bourque, Regehr, Phaneuf, Giordano, (probably forgetting a few) were all out; Langkow playing with 2 injured hands, Sarich playing on a broken foot...The team was completely decimated by injuries, and Chicago definitely didn't beat the best Flames team that could have been involved. Despite all of that, they still managed to outshoot Chicago 44-16 in the game 6 loss. That's pretty good for a team that didn't show up in my opinion. Now I'm not going to say the Canucks didn't show up, I didn't watch the game, but they did get lit up with 7 goals against...If the Flames didn't show up, what can be said about the Canucks?

As for nfkevin, he got into it with codes early in the season about being positive and such, they had a big internet fight and kevin said codes has driven everyone away with all his positive bs, and said he would be doing the same. Haven't heard from him since.
It's not like we lost in game 6 7-1. It was a close game in which defence and goaltending weren't a premium at either end. In the previous couple games we tried to play a sit back and trap style of game, and it didn't work as we lost 2-1 and 4-2. So in game 6 we tried to open it up and play a run and gun style that the Hawks played. We got beaten at their game, our offence scored enough to win most games, but since we pretty allowed the Hawks to have all the room they wanted they took advantage more than we did. It wasn't Luongo who let in 7 bad/mediocre goals, it was the defence that was constatnly pinching and joining the rush that gave up way too many prime chances. Luongo could have played better, but it was only an average game by him. Any goalie would have given up at least 4 or 5 in the same situation.

Ok fair enough. Like I said, I didn't watch the game. So I guess it's not fair to say that either team "didn't show up".

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I wonder if the fact the flames have the least number of goalie interference calls on the season (1) is reflective of their net presence. flames fan opinion?

Vancouver has 6 - 7th most. Not necessarily a good thing... but acceptable if a side product driving the net, screening, pouncing on loose pucks and general combat with D.

Vancouver 3rd in PIM/gm, Cal is 6th

Calagry leads the league in fighting majors (Van 7th)

Vancouver leads in hooking (Cal 5th)

Vancouver leads in misconducts (Cal 18th)

Calgary 4th in boarding calls (Van 15th)

Vancouver 3rd least tripping, Cal 7th most

Both teams tied for 5th with 5 holding the stick calls.

And on a related note:

Calgary PK% 83.1 9th

Vancouver PK% 82.3 12th

Wow, excellent dig, and I think its very indicative of both teams' style of play.

The fact that the Canucks have that many goalie interference calls against them doesn't surprise me one bit. The way I see Vancouver's offense a lot of the time, is that they get the puck to the point and everyone else gets ready for the shot. There's often, 6,7 guys including opposition standing directly in the low slot every time a Vancouver d-man shoots the puck. And it seems to always be a low, slow shot from the D. The odds that, with that much traffic, the puck will go past the screened goalie or hit at least one item of equipment and change direction on the goalie, if he ever even saw it, are probably astoundingly high. On top of that, if the puck hits somebody and falls to the ice, you've got a goalie sitting at the top of the crease still trying to figure out what's happeneing, and 3 forwards with a look at an open net. Its a foolproof approach. Its also frustrating as hell, I'll admit that I often wish there was a way to track "garbage goals" or "puck luck" when watching Canucks games so that I could prove to myself that the majority of their offense is the result of these types of goals. And that's not meant to insult or take anything away from the Canucks success, I wish my team would get on that approach already. Aside from the fight line, literally nobody on the roster drives to the net with any intent of scoring dirty goals. I guess Bourque does. The Flames mostly seem like a bunch of primadonnas on offense. Its embarassing...

This post has gone on long enough, so I dont want to dive into dissecting all of them in the same way. But you definitely could, I think they all tell similar stories, and if you watch either team play you're probably not surprised by any of those numbers. For example, the fact that Vancouver leads the league in misconducts doesn't surprise me at all - they've got yappers like Burrows and Kesler around! Of course they lead in misconducts! lol

Thanks for sharing.

  

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And the streaks continue.

Canucks - 6 wins

Flames - 8 losses

Pretty much polar opposites right now. The Flames fans are left grasping at straws, hoping that the Canucks mammoth 2 part road trip derails them. We can't even be confident in our team keeping up, we have to hope others also begin to fail...Misery loves company after all.

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just curious... How much canucks exposure do flames fan get? Maybe "exposure" isnt the right word..

The canucks flagship radio station has 1 or 2 talk-show producers that are flames fans. They provide tidbits on the flames, or opinion from a flames fan perspective... Does anything like that happen in calgary?

The Fan 960 is Calgary's Flames talk radio, not aware of any Canucks fans on the staff, but they always throw in little tidbits regarding not only the Canucks but the rest of the division...they try to cover as much NHL as possible, but they also definitely keep a close eye on the Flames enemies. There's actually one host (Pat Steinberg I think) who absolutely hates the Canucks...its pretty funny.

Also, did any of you Canucks fans notice that pile of waste Wayne Primeau helping the Sedin line eat the Leafs for dinner tonight? On the Canucks 2nd and 4th goals, he left me thanking God that he's no longer a Flame, and wondering how great of a GM Brian Burke really is for acquiring him from Calgary at all...I guess that doesn't speak highly for D.Sutter either, but thats another discussion...at least he had the sense to get rid of him. 2nd Canucks goal, Primeau's down low to Toskala's left, he looks right at a Sedin that he has in check, then takes off after the puck leaving the Sedin (forget which one) ALL alone for the easy tap-in...Then on the go-ahead 4th goal, there's already 2 Leafs forwards deep, their line is up against the Sedins at a critical time in the game, Henrik gets the puck to start a breakout and Primeau pulls some ridiculous belly-flop stick check move which of course Henrik skates right past and its a 3-on-2 the other way. Easy goal, game over. I mean, for a veteran guy like Primeau, who's supposedly this awesome "defensive forward", the complete lack of hockey sense was pathetic. Honestly, who looks right at a Sedin by the side of the net, and then skates away to leave him all by himself. You're begging to be scored on...man did he fail hard tonight.

Anyways good on the Canucks to earn a win like that, this post wasn't meant to discredit them in case it comes off that way, more just wanted to vent on how grateful I am that Primeau is "earning" his millions somewhere other than Calgary...the guy is complete garbage. So are the Leafs, they literally don't have a single player on that roster that makes you say, "man that guy's good".

  

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Canucks win streak pushes to 7, Flames losing streak snapped at 9. I wonder if the Canucks can surpass what Calgary posted but, you know, wins and not losses.

Though, the Flames should really beat and NHL team before their streak can be considered really snapped.

And the Canucks should really have to beat an NHL team to consider their win streak extended?

  

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7uongo is back, looks like he is gearing up for a playoff run against the Hawks again!

I don't know what ground you think you have to stand on, seeing that the Hawks own our team even harder than they own the Nucks.

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[quote name=Chairman_Maouth wrote:


bigchief]
Burrows? Love really is blind I guess. 

Not nearly as blind as hate....

The downhill slide will probably not start until the playoffs actually begin, stock up on tissues for Luongo now 
laugh.gif
.

Interestingly, I think you may have just unwittingly touched on an important and discernible difference between the Canucks and the Flames. Kelser has been criticized for "hating Canada", when his hate was actually confined to the rink and Team Canada. Luongo has shed a few tears once or twice, and Burrows was close to tears after the referee incident. If the Flames showed that much emotion about the game which they apparently love, maybe they wouldn't be fighting just to make the playoffs. In addition and again, Luongo may have shed a few tears, but I don't recall him ever abandoning ship and swimming for the security of the bench in the middle of one of the most important games of his life. I'll take a tearful player with a ton of heart over an emotionless quitter any day of the week.

I will also take my emotional team and the fact that they not only show heart, but they wear it openly on their sleeve. There really is no contest.

WOW now them are fightin' words!

In Kiprusoff's defense, that Finnish team completely abandoned him as well for most of the tournament. Luongo was playing with 10x the team in front of him and although I'm sure he wouldn't have pulled himself, he also never had to deal with a team that didn't show up. As we Flames fans know all too well, Kiprusoff has been the guy who's been left for dead and shelled mercilessly on many occasions over the years, and has shown a ton of fight and ability to keep his team competitive. However in saying that I'm more or less just proving your point regarding the two teams.

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Didnt want to start a new thread for this but it does deserve some spotlight.....

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/...n-hospital-donation.html

"Vancouver Canucks hockey stars Daniel and Henrik Sedin have donated $1.5 million to help build a new BC Children's Hospital.

The Swedish twins, who have played for the NHL club for a decade, made their gift to support the hospital's Campaign for BC Children and specifically to the intensive care unit and diagnostics and imaging area in the new hospital.

In a statement issued through the hospital foundation, the brothers said they and their families feel very fortunate to live and work in Vancouver and want to give something back that would benefit children and families across the province. "

I know alot of players donate time and money but I havent seen too many donate this much out of there own pockets. Good for them....

Good on them. I've always thought that if I were ever in the position that star athletes are in, making multiple millions every year, I'd do a lot of significant things with that money like we're seeing here by the sisters. I know that's probably easy to say as somebody who's never seen that kind of money before, but I'll stand by it. 

I think as a whole, the entire players union of the NBA donated $1 million to the relief effort in Haiti. Think about the collective sum of their salaries, guys like LeBron, Kobe, Shaq, etc. I don't even know how much these guys make or who the highest paid players are, but I imagine we'd be talking about billions of collective dollars, and they put together 1 million. The two Sedins combined put together a larger sum of money, and I think that is very commendable.

  

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[quote name='DL44 wrote:


IgBoPhanKipReg']Yes...despite my hatred for the Sedins and their hockey team from a Flame Fan perspective, their humanitarian actions serves notice to other members of our greed-driven society that some people will give substantial portions of their income freely to those more in need.
Definitely kudos to them!

On another note, if I made 6.1 million a year and gave up a one-time donation of 750,000 (12.3% of their annual gross income) the pain would be relatively insignificant compared to say a $50,000 wage-earner giving up $6150 (12.3% gross) to a noble cause.

Philosophical Musings: Will the Sedins ever get traded from Vancouver in their careers and, if they do,
will they ever be separated or will they perpetually be a package deal?

I could almost guarantee they will always be a package deal. And they'll also have complete control of that for the rest of their careers.

No trade clauses now, and then UFAs together in 6yrs.

Yeah I think it's safe to say that they'll be playing on the same team for the duration of their careers. Hard to say if they'll retire as Canucks, as it has a lot to do with how the franchise fares between now and then, and what direction both parties (Canucks and Sedins) are headed in when they approach UFA status. The Sedins will become UFA(s) at age 33 according to their current contracts (34 by the start of the season following the expiration of the deals), which is still a reasonable age to be playing hockey. Call it a hunch, but I think they'll end up retiring as Canucks, having only ever played for that one franchise, and we'll be seeing #'s 22 and 33 hanging in the rafters of GM place down the line.

  

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Yeah DL I think if it was a relentless game for the Canucks the score would've been 8, maybe 9 to 1. Absolutely relentless 1st period, that's for sure. The Canucks literally had the entire Flames team looking for their collective jock strap. Not trying to take anything away from the Nucks, all in all they were the better team and deserved the 2 points.

I was left wondering though, why is it that the Flames have seen this show run on them time and time again, yet can't seem to figure out how to defend against it? Granted, the Canucks have been eating up defenses all season, but on every one of the Canucks goals vs the Flames, there was a man left wide open, absolutely unchecked. Especially the Kesler goal, there's 2 Flames chasing after Burrows with the puck, and another set to peel off his point man and join the chase, while Kesler is left totally unchecked and free to rip a one-timer. You have to know that when you play the Canucks, and especially the Sedin line, the player with the puck isn't necessarily the one you need to worry about. Of course the Canucks players are talented enough to be able to get in these areas, I'm not trying to dispute that, but I also don't think the Flames did a good job in game planning. I think the defensive strategy has to be tweaked more to a strict man coverage when facing the Nucks, as they ate up the zone coverage for the entire 1st period. That and, stay the hell out of the penalty box.

The Flames have had this propensity the last few seasons for totally imploding, running around chasing the puck while the other team goes globetrotters on them, taking a whole string of penalties in a row, allowing upwards of 20 shots and 10 glorious scoring chances in a period...It's pathetic, and so predictable. Think of the Detroit debaucle, games 1 and 2 playoffs 2007. Or a couple of similar games in San Jose, last season and this season. Ditto vs Chicago. Ditto again vs Vancouver.

Man did that turn into a rant quickly...

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[quote name='DL44 wrote:


hurtin_albertan']Yeah DL I think if it was a relentless game for the Canucks the score would've been 8, maybe 9 to 1. Absolutely relentless 1st period, that's for sure. The Canucks literally had the entire Flames team looking for their collective jock strap. Not trying to take anything away from the Nucks, all in all they were the better team and deserved the 2 points.

I was left wondering though, why is it that the Flames have seen this show run on them time and time again, yet can't seem to figure out how to defend against it? Granted, the Canucks have been eating up defenses all season, but on every one of the Canucks goals vs the Flames, there was a man left wide open, absolutely unchecked. Especially the Kesler goal, there's 2 Flames chasing after Burrows with the puck, and another set to peel off his point man and join the chase, while Kesler is left totally unchecked and free to rip a one-timer. You have to know that when you play the Canucks, and especially the Sedin line, the player with the puck isn't necessarily the one you need to worry about. Of course the Canucks players are talented enough to be able to get in these areas, I'm not trying to dispute that, but I also don't think the Flames did a good job in game planning. I think the defensive strategy has to be tweaked more to a strict man coverage when facing the Nucks, as they ate up the zone coverage for the entire 1st period. That and, stay the hell out of the penalty box.

The Flames have had this propensity the last few seasons for totally imploding, running around chasing the puck while the other team goes globetrotters on them, taking a whole string of penalties in a row, allowing upwards of 20 shots and 10 glorious scoring chances in a period...It's pathetic, and so predictable. Think of the Detroit debaucle, games 1 and 2 playoffs 2007. Or a couple of similar games in San Jose, last season and this season. Ditto vs Chicago. Ditto again vs Vancouver.

Man did that turn into a rant quickly...

You are correct sir.  The flames D had breakdowns... but the biggest factor in needing the Zamboni to clean only one half of the ice after the 1st was Puck Battles.  The canucks out worked and out skated the flames all over the ice.  It seemed like every loose puck, a canuck was closer to, or there was a stick lift or a bounce off a leg...   that's what i mean when i said relentless... all over the puck. But you're right tho... essentially it was only 20 minutes... but it determined the game...

The D ends up out of position, teammates don't trust their partners and try to do too much by trying to 'help' and end up getting burned by the better teams that have the vision to see the rotation overload and find the open guy.. too scrambled. 

The kesler goal was the perfect example as you've already described....... Burrows picks off a pass - a flames turnover in the high slot creates a scramble by the flames - Burrows who shows a tonne of poise by faking to the point pivots and attacks the net drawing 2 players and gets it to a wide open Kesler.  Now the player in the middle failed to trust his teammate leaving Kesler wide open by 'helping'.

It comes down to trusting teammates to do their job, and you doing yours.  When the trust isn't there - play gets more scrambled - people trying to cover for teammates.  Similar to the beef people here had about Phaneuf - needing help and not having the trust of regher who often looked bad because he was leaving his man earlier.

Consider me enlightened....well said.

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Pretty sure Toskala will be in net, for what it's worth.  Not that Kiprusoff has been super stellar against the Canucks either. Remember who you're playing - the same team that the Sedins have gone globetrotters on a bunch of times. I'd say he has a good shot at 2 points.

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Oilers fan here hoping the flames win the northwest , only because vancouver has the most over rated goalie to ever play in the nhl....

Only because 29 other teams didn't know that Daniel Hamhuis is ganna win the norris next year

Only beacause Manny Malhotra is going to score 60 points and have a  99% faceoff winning percentage

Only because Segei Shirokov is going to be the next Wayne Gretzky...

Here's one reason and the only reason why the Canaucks won't win the northwest .....................................................................They have 8 players coming off career , all but two of them are at the height of there careers ... The chance of them duplicating the year they had is very unlikly ..........

and lets not forget the northwest has become stronger calgary is far better then last year minny has played one year longer under there new coach and new style... the av's can only get better  oilers have become bigger faster and younger...

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/sergei_shirokov'>

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While most people cheer for The Battle of Alberta.Im not from either of those cities so Im a Battle for Alberta Fan.Ive got the rest of Canada and the whole U.S.A to cheer against.I guess it was just a reminder that the Canucks havent won squat and your sig about the Oilers is kinda funny considering theyve got 5 cups.And more in the near future,count on it.But while your here,"Whats the difference between the Flames and a bra."?.The flames only have one cup..Heard that from an Oiler fan...lol.

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Okay, in my opinion this shouldn't be a debate...yet. Both teams have been slightly made-over and it's going to be a battle for the top spot in the NW. Pre-season hasn't even started yet, so right now it's just on paper I guess...

Anyways, my point is that we won't know which D is better until the season starts so this debate is a little early, but that's just my opinion

That being said, here comes Edmonton to compete for the Division crown!roll.gif

Sorry, I could never say that with a straight face.

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speaking of all this, we may have already found the LW to plug into that top line spot--Backlund.  The Sutters clearly have confidense in him being able to step into that role, as he played the whole game with Iginla and Jokinen, (except for when Dawes or Moss replaced him on the PP) and played admirably--if not spectacularly.
Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see him fill in the top left wing. However, I think there is still a little bit of that European game left in his style. He is strong on the puck,  and is able to make some quick, clean plays. Unfortunately, he still floats around a little bit too much without the puck, and does not forecheck aggressively enough in our current gameplay style.

Hopefully, it will not be a big problem for him as it was for Huselius. If the coaching staff can work it into his head to play the aggressive game, he should fit in with our top line quite well.

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Seriously the Canucks are overrated. Last year you had Kesler and Burrows going for you along with the Sedins, but I think that was all a one year hit wonder thing, their production will tail off this season especially for Burrows. This team is all Sedins and Luongo, shut down the Sedins and you got nothing. As for Luongo who knows he can be stellar but he can horrible too. I think the Canucks defence is pretty weak compared to the Flames.

Quote me on this, Canucks will be pushing for the 8th spot but in the end will falter and miss the playoffs. All these media types are overrating the Canucks seriously there is nothing on that team that screams 1st or stanley cup champs, they seem average to me and thats not going to cut it.

Cheers.

Not to sound like a Vancouver fan or anything, but you are clearly a total idiot who has no idea what hockey team valuation is like.

...Actually, scratch that; I would rather cheer for the Canucks than agree with your shortsighted, stupid ideas, and it is clear to me that your only source of knowledge comes from NHL 10.

Have you noticed, for instance, that they have had a much more stable core for the past 4 years? That in those past four years, they have been the division champions twice, while we have attained that once? That we have actually have a problem playing against them, because our teams are very competitive, yet they usually find a way to win against us?

I got to say, Luongo's no slouch in net; he is definitely a little bit better than Kipper, and that was before the defence was improved, with a GAA of 2.34 versus Kip's 2.84, Save % of .920 s .903,  giving up 70 less goals on 500 less shots, but just because Kipruoff is a workhorse doesn't necessarily make him better.

As for the players, their overall was better than ours, meaning more defensive responsibility. The entire team, with a player's point total that got 80 less point production, won more games than we did. 80 points less equals out to a first-line player value, and now they are doing it with some better players this season that they have acquired, not to mention a firmly established style of play.

In short, even without the numbers, you are just another blind fan that can appreciate his team, but not the sport of the other teams around them.

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[quote name='iggygiggy wrote:


ren1 wrote:

Keys']Not to sound like a Vancouver fan or anything

Sorry, but you really do.
No kidding... sounds like a fanboy posing as a flames fan. 

I'm a hockey fan. Meaning unlike yourself, I can recognize talent in any roster.  If you want to centre on that, fine. I meant what I said in the second sentence too, I would rather be a Vancouver fan then to listen to your drivel. I am a "fanboy" as much as you are "intelligent".

Although I guess it's true, ignorance is bliss, and you are just a complete idiot. roll.gif

I finally understand Lunatik, although I am nowhere near his level.

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[quote name='Demonous_Xodus wrote:


Keys wrote:

iggygiggy wrote:

ren1 wrote:

Keys']Not to sound like a Vancouver fan or anything

Sorry, but you really do.
No kidding... sounds like a fanboy posing as a flames fan. 

I'm a
hockey
fan. Meaning unlike yourself, I can recognize talent in any roster.  If you want to centre on that, fine. I meant what I said in the second sentence too,
I would rather be a Vancouver fan then to listen to your drivel
. I am a "fanboy" as much as you are "intelligent".

Although I guess it's true, ignorance is bliss, and you are just a complete idiot.
roll.gif

I finally understand Lunatik
, although I am nowhere near his level.

Difference, Lunatik would never "rather cheer for the Canucks then listen to someone's drivel".

You dirty Canucks Lover.I love 30 teams. I only cheer for the Flames. =p

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Bouwmeester>Mitchell

Regehr>Edler

Phaneuf>Ehrhoff

Sarich=Bieksa

Giordano Pardy>O'Brien

Stralman>Lukowich

sarich and bieksa are completely different.  Compare bieksa to giordano, and sarich to salo.

besides, sarich is better than bieksatongue.gif

  

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[quote name='Hockey_Canada1 wrote:


littlereddevil wrote:

ren1 wrote:

Hockey_Canada1']shall we compare defensive cores now?
:lol:

For sure!

Ours is still the best in the league, and as an added bonus it doesn't bring us $3 million over the cap.

Exactly. Gillis
hasn't
been able to manage the cap efficiently, and look what he has.

An inconsistent defensemen who is way over-payed (O'Brien), another inconsistent defensemen who plays poorly in his own end (Ehrhoff, who was

-12 last season), two cripples who are bound to get injured (Schneider and Salo), a bunch of pylons (Rome and Nycholat), another player who

*gasp* plays poorly in his own end (Bieksa, who was -4 last season), an overrated shutdown defenseman (Mitchell, who according to Canucks fans

should be on Team Canada) and mabye two proven NHL defensemen (Lukowich and Edler).....

In other words Gillis has overspent on defense.

So now we're overpaying for our defense..... puhhleezze!

  
LOL. I can play the same game.

Overpaid, overrated = Bouwmeester, Phanuef., Regehr

pylon = Sarich, Pardy

inconsistent, can't play in his own end = Giordano

aren't I clever?

But let's analyze who can't manage the cap effectively. The GM who is over the cap in August and has over a month to sort it out with 9 NHL defencemen or a GM who's team is forced to play with 17 players in the most crucial point in the season because of cap issues.

you have no proof.  I know phaneuf had a bad season--one bad season--but show me a nux defender who was nominated for the norris trophy--oh, right, there isn't one.

sarich and pardy pylons? well that may be (which it isn't), but they're both better than any of the canucks defensive defencemen-especially sarich

regehr is not overrated--and all of the sudden people are saying that about bouwmeester? that doesn't make sense, he had a good season with one of the worst teams in the league, playing against the likes of ovechkin, kovalchuk, malkin, crosby, lecavalier, and parise on a regular basis

Regehr may not score much, but he is one of the best defensive defenders in the league--he makes mitchel look like a "pylon" as you so colourfully put it, even with his nine foot long stick (and mitchel needs that stick extension to hit iginla over the head with from a safe distance)

all that said, gio is inconsistent. but not as much as he used to be.

and the only reason the flames went over the cap was because they had too many players injured at the same time (Bourque, Bertuzzi, Regehr, Giordano, Vandermeer, Primeau(for the whole season), Roy,... thats all i can think of right now) and had to make call-ups--namely, defenders Pardy, Pelech, Negrin, forwards Sutter, Van Der Gulik, Lundmark, Chucko.

i think any team would be over the cap in that situation, don't you?

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