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Discussion & Debate Thread: Flames and Canucks

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[quote name='kutarna wrote:


The_Don wrote:

kutarna']I somehow think Iginla has the potential to get back to his game IF the experiment (with Jokinen and Tanguay) works. I wouldn't be overly shocked if he goes back to 90 points and 50 goals. That being said, I also wouldn't be surprised if he gets another 70 points and 30 goals. His is the riskier proposition.

Luongo will almost certainly improve; I can't see his numbers staying the same from last year. He will bounce back a bit at least. However, given past performance and his lack of a significant D-man (not to say Vancouver doesn't have good d-men, just no big star d-man) tells me he won't achieve a top 5 performance.

In other words: Luongo is the safer bet, but if Iginla performs it will be to a higher level.

Luongo doesn't need a superstar goalie in front of him to be top 5. Look at the top 2 goalies last season, neither Miller nor Bryzgalov had a superstar in front of them. But rather, deep and solid defensively. Exactly what the Canucks is now.

Sorry, this might be bad taste, but I just love this comment. First of all, you present a valid point. However:

-I should hope Luongo doesn't need another goalie in front of him. That would be sad. 2 goalies? Is that even allowed?

-Second; "exactly what the Canucks is now"? Are they a collective noun all of a sudden? smile.gif

Now that I've mangled your typos, to address you actual point. You are correct, neither Miller nor Bryzgalov had a superstar in front of them. However, they both play in strong defensive systems, much to their advantage. Luongo isn't so lucky. Saying that the Canucks D core is "deep and solid" is akin to claiming Calgary's forwards are "deep and solid" and that should be sufficient to score loads of goals. Luongo had a player's rear parked in his face for much of the season, and that hurts performance. Without some serious physical presence from the D, he will not achieve top 5 stats.

It's "your actual point" not "you actual point" .....If your going to correct someones typos make sure you do it properly. tongue.gif

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Congrads on 3-1 series lead, it will be tied by the end and look at the standings bud. Man quit preaching about your cup that was like 21 years ago. By the way Iginla has lost a step he's like how Naslund was in point preduction post lock out for the first 2 years before Naslund really dropped off.

*$!$ years on the way for the flames

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tachaudh, the canucks didn't have 3 of their top 4 d-man they should of lost, Love having Nolan Baumgartner play better then Phaneuf and Regher

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You wanna know a funny stat? the canucks have never won a stanley cup in a 40 year excistance.

/laughter.

Will win one before you win another because the flames are awful and Sutter is a brutal GM.

  

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These Canucks fans are hilarious, even though their team is the ONLY Canadian team to have never won a stanley cup, and therefore have never accomplished anything in a 40 year existence, they still run their mouths like crazy. I know Calgary has only won the cup once....but at least this franchise has done it!!
Hey i can tell you don't watch hockey because Ottawa's never won the cup either. Do research before you write, you make yourself sound like an idiot.

  

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[quote name='IgBoPhanKipReg wrote:


pross wrote:

Kipper14']These Canucks fans are hilarious, even though their team is the ONLY Canadian team to have never won a stanley cup, and therefore have never accomplished anything in a 40 year existence, they still run their mouths like crazy. I know Calgary has only won the cup once....but at least this franchise has done it!!

Hey i can tell you don't watch hockey because Ottawa's never won the cup either. Do research before you write, you make yourself sound like an idiot.

  

Pross...are you and your misinformed posts still here? Do your research before you write, you make yourself sound like an idiot.

The Ottawa Senators, officially the Ottawa Hockey Club (Ottawa HC), was an amateur, later becoming a professional, men's ice hockey team based in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada from 1883 to 1954 and a member of the National Hockey League (NHL) from 1917 to 1934. The club had several nicknames, such as the Generals in the 1890s, Silver Seven from 1903 to 1907 and the Senators dating from 1912.

Generally acknowledged by hockey historians as one of the greatest teams of the early days of the sport, the club won numerous championships, starting with the 1891 to 1893 Ontario championships. Ottawa HC played in the first season during which the Stanley Cup was challenged in 1893, and first won the Cup in 1903, holding the championship until 1906 (the Silver Seven years). The club repeated its success in the 1920s, winning the Stanley Cup in 1920, 1921, 1923 and 1927 (the Super Six years). In total, the club won the Stanley Cup eleven times, including challenges during two years it did not win the Cup for the season. In 1950, Canadian sports editors selected the Ottawa HC/Senators as Canada's greatest team in the first half of the 20th century. (Source: Wikipedia)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Senators, Hey bud I think that's the team you were actually looking for. Unless you actually want to go back that far because then Vancouver has a cup to with the Millionaires. Smarten up they're different clubs.

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Hey there. I'm a Vancouver Canucks fan, if you couldn't already tell.

I'd like to offer support to the Flames as a new fan.

I'm not exactly the hugest fan of your organization, but my recently unfathomable hate for the Oilers has made me one.

And a big thank you to your organization for providing a great rivalry over the last 30 years.

Go Flames, and Go Canucks!

m_0c4f4a7e72f9608f5cedb4f729c30b08.jpg

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This should be a very interesting season.  We've got two very similar teams at this point (at least on paper), teams that can be defensively responsible, and stay in the middle of the pack offensively.

The thing about the Flames' offence this year is that no one complained about their "lack of goal scoring depth" before they got Cammalleri.  So what if we lost 39 goals there?  We have more than adequate personel to at least be considered dangerous offensively--if not as much as last season.  The 'Nucks have more or less the same situation, except that everyone knows what their group is capable of (a rough estimate anyway)

Really the only glaring problem in the Flames' lineup is the lack of a first line LW.  And the solution to that problem might be somewhere in the lineup already--just like the Canucks found their first line RW (Burrows) last year.

  

I agree that this will be a very interesting year for the NW division. The Avs are going to be terrible, the Wild are going to have a tough transition in identity and the Oilers... well, I just don't see them going anywhere but where they like to hang out just outside the playoffs. I think this is going to leave the Flames and Canucks fighting hard for the #1 spot in the division as well as the conference.

I think the one major difference between the teams will be very interesting to watch and that is the salary structure of the defense. The Flames frontloading their top 4 and then filling in their bottom 3 roster spots versus the Canucks having a fairly even spread in salary across their entire D group.

The top line LW position really should not matter very much for the Flames. When you have a line that already has Iginla and Jokinen, filling in that third spot on the line can happen using Boyd, Backlund, Dawes, Glencross or Bourque and I really do not think any of those are bad choices. Whoever gets that spot is going to get a lot of open ice and chances to score goals while other teams are dealing with Iginla and Jokinen. I really do not believe we need an expensive LWer to make that line work.

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I would agree that the Flames don't need a top flight LW and could easily get by with one of the guys you mentioned. However, the problem could arise on your 2nd line, when you are again filling in spots with borderline top 6 forwards or 3rd line forwards. Having one of your fringe players in your top 6 is no problem, teams do it all the time with success. Detroit with Cleary for example. But having 2 of those guys in your top 6 can pose a problem.

The flames right now have 4 legit top 6 forwards; Iginla, Jokinen, Bourque and Langkow. After that you have a bunch of guys that either have the potnetial to be there (Boyd, Dawes, Backlund) or guys that are just on the fringe (Glencross, Conroy, Moss). The Canucks have been in a similar situation for pretty much the last 3 years. It was Sedin, Sedin, Naslund and Morrison. Then last season it was Sedin, Sedin, Kesler, Demitra (before Sundin). This season it seems that Burrows has stepped up into that role, and I believe we now have 5 of these guys, with just as many knocking on the door, like the Flames. I think having that 5th guy can be crucial, so that you don't have both of your top lines with guys on it that just don't quite belong.

And I'll say this again, just so you don't think I am bashing here. There are always guys that step up and surprise (ala Bourque, Burrows) and take hold of a top 6 role for good. And there are some guys that could conceivably do that on the Flames roster. But it remains to be seen who that will be, if it happens at all. It could be the difference between being out in the first round again, or making a long run in the playoffs.

I agree with the concept of what you are saying. Only having 4 bonafide top 6 players with one of them (Bourque) being suspect in some people's eyes can be cause for concern. For the most part the Flames have been one of those teams that have not really allowed growth from within, particularly in our top 6 forwards. We have always gone out and looked for that Nolan, Cammalleri or Bertuzzi to add to the mix.

Last year the Flames worked pretty effectively with a top 9 that pretty much looked like this:

Cammalleri-Lombardi/Conroy-Iginla

Bourque-Langkow-Bertuzzi

Glencross-Lombardi/Conroy-Moss

Taking that line up to this year:

XXXX-Jokinen-Iginla

Bourque-Langkow-XXXX

Glencross-Conroy-Moss

Plugging a Boyd, Backlund, Glencross or Dawes into that top line spot should allow the line to still be effective. At least as effective as last year when we were rolling with Lombo/Conroy on the line. I really think having a strong centerman like Jokinen will make that line superior to when we had a questionable center but a big scoring winger like Cammi.

The second line loses Bertuzzi which I think is a big chunk of creativity but also a big chunk of turnovers and defensive liability. Moss should be an effective replacement and I think that line should still be productive and from the sounds of Sjostrom he should be an easy replacement for Moss.

What is exciting from my point of view, especially during the offseason, is that we are going to be giving guys like Moss, Glencross, Boyd or Backlund a shot at bigger roles and there are enough of them competing for those spots that I feel they will really go all out to try to be the guy who wins top minutes. It will certainly suck if these guys all fall flat on their faces but realistically one or two of them should be able to really step up.

The main thing that makes it all work though is our strength on D. Having Bouwmeester, Phaneuf, Regehr and Sarich on the blue line will really allow for more options and room for winger mistakes than when Aucoin and Vandermeer were there.

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Calgary has a higher travelling schedule because there road trips are broken up in 3's. But if you take a look at there overall schedule, I'd probably take there's. There road trips are set up the same way ( Montreal, Buffalo, Toronto) home ( Detroit, Columbus, Nashville) . The travel between those cities are very minimal and its only 3 games then back home. 7 game road trips are horrible even if it has a break. Especially considering we will have 8 players playing big roles during the Olympics.

I know Gillis spoke to the league and has brought in many people to help ease things with players. He is getting a good reputation and is bringing some class to Vancouver. Maybe its because of our road trips that he decided to bring in the extra d-men..... especially knowing that a few of them are injury prone

The Flames also have a lot more back to back games. I think the Canucks have 8 back to backs while the Flames are looking at 13 and of those 13 back to backs, some of them are back to back (ie. 4 games in 5 days). Even with the 7 game road trips that the Canucks have, I would personally rather have the Canuck's schedule.

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Hodgson sent to Brampton this morning.

Lukowich, Nycholat and Funk on waivers.

Roster now looks like this:

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows

Shirokov - Kesler - Samuelsson

Raymond - Wellwood - Bernier

Hordichuk - Johnson - Rypien/Glass

Mitchell - Salo

Edler - Ehrhoff

Bieksa - O'Brien

Rome

Luongo

Raycroft

Injured: Demitra, Schneider, Hansen

Interesting. I know how high you guys are on that kid. Is the expectation that Hodgson is staying down to develop this year or just until he can get called up and secure a spot? I know with Backlund my expectation is that he is staying on the Heat for the year.

Lukowich looks like an expensive contract to bury in the minors ($1.6M). Did he get outplayed by Rome or is that a salary cap burying?

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Seriously the Canucks are overrated. Last year you had Kesler and Burrows going for you along with the Sedins, but I think that was all a one year hit wonder thing, their production will tail off this season especially for Burrows. This team is all Sedins and Luongo, shut down the Sedins and you got nothing. As for Luongo who knows he can be stellar but he can horrible too. I think the Canucks defence is pretty weak compared to the Flames.

Quote me on this, Canucks will be pushing for the 8th spot but in the end will falter and miss the playoffs. All these media types are overrating the Canucks seriously there is nothing on that team that screams 1st or stanley cup champs, they seem average to me and thats not going to cut it.

Cheers.

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[quote name='ren1 wrote:


Keys']Not to sound like a Vancouver fan or anything

Sorry, but you really do.No kidding... sounds like a fanboy posing as a flames fan. 

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[quote name='Barney_Gumble wrote:


iggygiggy']Canucks are going to miss the playoffs.

image

Care to expand on that, Carnac?Well for one that huge ROAD TRIP their going to have because of the olympics is going to beat them down, unless they create a huge margin of wins from the start of the season till the olympics I just think they can't do it. And obviously injuries are big factor but I think they'll compete for the last couple of playoff spots but won't make it.

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[quote name='Barney_Gumble wrote:


iggygiggy']Canucks are going to miss the playoffs.

image

Care to expand on that, Carnac?Well for one that huge ROAD TRIP their going to have because of the olympics is going to beat them down, unless they create a huge margin of wins from the start of the season till the olympics I just think they can't do it. And obviously injuries are big factor but I think they'll compete for the last couple of playoff spots but won't make it.

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Canucks are such an amazing team....

My opinions were slandered left right and center by a so called flames fan who is really a canuck fan....

As I said this Canuck team is nothing but a team that can compete for the bottom 2 spots for the playoffs and they won't make it. The Canucks aren't built to be a good sustained team through this season. Their top line with the Sedins you shut them down and your work is done. Burrows and Kesler's years last year was a one hit wonder their definitely going to tail off this season, you can't except these guys to front your team scoring. As for Luongo as I said he's the wild card, he can be really good or really bad and as of late the guy has been horrible. The LONG road trip is going to kill the Canucks it would kill any team. But hey omgzzz tsn and sportsnet said canuckz are suppose to be #1 and stanley cup champs, haha that's laughable. Nice try but the Canucks are no where near stanley cup material.

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Okay so I'm just stating my opinion guys, sorry to bash on your Canuck orgy's.....this canuck team is simply a bunch of over hyped buffoons. So if this so called deepest blueline is so amazing why aren't they shutting down the scoring chances, and your so called overrated best goalie on the planet is looking average, he's an average goalie where he has spurts of amazingness here or there, he's nothing average I don't get why this guy is pegged as this allstart goaltender who has won nothing in his life and has gone no where but 1st round. The Canucks are one line team, yes the Sedins are playing well otherwise the rest of duds you guys have can do nothing if their life counted on it. And the one year hit wonders like Kesler aren't going to be producing what they produced last year.

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Okay so I'm just stating my opinion guys, sorry to bash on your Canuck orgy's.....this canuck team is simply a bunch of over hyped buffoons. So if this so called deepest blueline is so amazing why aren't they shutting down the scoring chances, and your so called overrated best goalie on the planet is looking average, he's an average goalie where he has spurts of amazingness here or there, he's nothing average I don't get why this guy is pegged as this allstart goaltender who has won nothing in his life and has gone no where but 1st round. The Canucks are one line team, yes the Sedins are playing well otherwise the rest of duds you guys have can do nothing if their life counted on it. And the one year hit wonders like Kesler aren't going to be producing what they produced last year.

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Seriously the Canucks are overrated. Last year you had Kesler and Burrows going for you along with the Sedins, but I think that was all a one year hit wonder thing, their production will tail off this season especially for Burrows. This team is all Sedins and Luongo, shut down the Sedins and you got nothing. As for Luongo who knows he can be stellar but he can horrible too. I think the Canucks defence is pretty weak compared to the Flames.

Quote me on this, Canucks will be pushing for the 8th spot but in the end will falter and miss the playoffs. All these media types are overrating the Canucks seriously there is nothing on that team that screams 1st or stanley cup champs, they seem average to me and thats not going to cut it.

Cheers.

So I was nicely tortured and called an idiot for pointing out the obvious... now do you believe me? the canucks will be pushing for the final playoff spot and I'm sorry i still think their goin to miss the playoffs...

I wrote this 3 months its on PAGE 21 if you canuckers wanna see...

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