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Discussion & Debate Thread: Flames and Canucks

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Last yr's back-to-back records....

Flames:

Game 1: 6-7-1

Game 2: 3-10-1

Canucks:

Game 1: 5-5

Game 2: 4-5-1

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Comparison of Changes so far this off season..

Calgary Out: Cammalleri, Bertuzzi, Aucoin, Vandermeer, Leopold, Keenan

Calgary In: Bouwmeester, Dawes, McGratten, Kronwall, Sjostrom (Backlund), Sutter

Vancouver Out: Sundin, Pyatt, Ohlund, Vaananen, Davidson, Labarbra, Sanford

Vancouver In: Samuelsson, (Rypien), Schneider, Ehrhoff, Lukowich, Rycroft (Hodgson)

Add any i missed.... i ignored the AHL fodder - Jaffary's and Krog's of the lineup...

So far I'm liking the upgrades. I'm wondering exactly what Gillis means by we don't have to move anyone to get under the cap... but i have to assume it's a Demitra injury.

If so, it'll open up a spot for guys like Raymond and Grabner to show what they can do in a top 6 role.

anyways... just a quick update to the significant changes the teams have had so far...

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Conclusion. Paying $23M evenly between your "top 8" defenders is not better than paying $23.6M for your top 8 defenders with your top 4 making significantly more and your bottom 4 making significantly less.

I would have to agree with this in general. The D group as well as the forward group need the go-to-horses to fall back on in critical moments.

The flames have Bouwmeester.  A stud on the D that the canucks can't match really.  Phaneuf gets paid like one, but his last 1 and half yrs in his own end contradict his salary.  Elite level offense, but not the second or even 3rd choice to be out there while up a goal late in a game. Regher... Jbo... probably Sarich (after his solid yr last yr) and then Phaneuf...  the kid is still developing obviously, so we'll see to what level he plays to this yr.

Now while missing the true go-to horse on the Back end.... the depth the Canucks have accumilated this yr is fantastic.  Probably the deepest I've ever seen it... or second to the WCE yrs (~5-6 yrs ago) when the Canucks had the largest defense in the league... Jovo was the smallest member... Jovo, Ohlund, Salo, Sopel, Malik, Allen... that was definitely the biggest and (i believe) the highest scoring D the canucks probably had...

Altho i would rather have the JBo horse.... it is pretty sweet to see us be able to roll any D pairing out there and be a legit threat offensively as well as very competant in their own zone.

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OK... we will not get anywhere further with the D discussion without getting locked here...

Flame fan likes the flame D. Canuck fan likes the Canuck D. agree to disagree already...

hows about moving on to the forwards.....

Looking at the the rosters... i was surprised to see the the flames do not have a contract over $1.4 mil after the top 3... that's pretty remarkable to me... some great value contracts Sutter was able to put together. Vancouver has 5 players valued between Langkow and Bourque.

After Iggy (7), Ollie (5.3), and Langkow (4.5), the next 11:

Bourque (1.4), Moss (1.3), Glencross (1.2), Conroy (1.1), Dawes (.85), (Backlund .85), Sjostrom (.75), Nystrom (.69), Boyd (.65), Lundmark (.6), McGratten (.55)

After Sedins (6.1) and Demitra (4), the next 11:

Samuelsson (2.5), Burrows (2), Bernier (2), Kesler (1.8), Wellwood (1.2), Johnson (1.1), (Hodgson .85), Raymond (.79), Hordichuk (.77), Rypien (.55), Hansen (.55)

Much like the D of the 2 teams... salary wise the flames are also more top heavy on forwards than the canucks who have their salary spread out more evenly.

Never realized it before...

thoughts...

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Wow.  I'm literally blown away by peoples' inability to acknowledge that the Flames' defensive system was crap, which is very apparent if you look at team stats, and individual players' defensive statistics.

With Sutter at the helm, I fully anticipate that the Flames will have better defensive stats than the Canucks right across the board.

I'm blown away (altho not literally like yourself) by people's ability to suppress the poor individual defensive decision and play making last yr and blanket it all in a single swoop by blaming "the system".

The defense down to the individual did not play well last yr... and it's all documented  (every single goal against) right here on this site's GDTs.

The system, the X's and O's a coach teaches, can dictate a certain style of in specific situations.. but hockey is such a dynamic game that its virtually impossible to implement any specific system during the duration of even a whole shift.

It come down battles... one on one... the breakdowns, the pinches, the switches, forgetting the backside, and all other brain farts that we all witnessed and read about can not all be blamed on any system.  Not even Regher was spared.

The addition of Sutter and a new system as well as an all around 2-way stud in JBo.. with Aucoin and Vandermeer replaced by rookies, or youngens....

I think they may be improved... but i by no means am expecting a 180 statistical turnaround with the Flames.

Last yr flames

GAA 23rd

SoGA 16th

SV% 25th

Maybe the SoGA has a chance of creeping into the Top 10..

The Canucks were ranked Top 10 in all those catgories...7th, 10th, 7th.

The Flames PK was ranked an awesome 4th...  they have lost 2 of their top unit in Primeau and Aucoin so it should drop. But we'll see how JBo offsets their loss...

The Flames were a 5th seeded team trying to become at least a 3rd seeded team.

Here's are the statistical changes over one yr for the canucks... they went from missing the playoffs (11th) to division champs in one yr.

G : 23rd - 11th

GA: 7th - 7th

PP: 18th - 17th

PK: 14th - 16th

FO: 24th - 5th

plus/-: 16th - 4th

SoG: 24th - 25th

SoG: 15th - 10th

You can see it's pretty hard to change your stripes in general.  The drastic changes with scoring and faceoffs was due to personnel upgrades upfront...

Gillis made drastic changes - replaced Naslund, Morrison, Linden, Ritchie, Isbister, Cowen (5/6 out of the league right noweek.gif) with Sundin, Demitra, Bernier, Johnson, Wellwood, Hordichuk coming in. 

I don't see drastic changes with the flames that would indicate a new top 10ish ranked D.

On the other hand, with the upgrades in depth on the backend and a deep forward group, i don't see the Canucks drop out of the Top 10 (and that was without Luongo for a quarter of the season)...

Codes, if you still anticipate the flames to sweep the defensive stats across the board after this post.... i would definitely take you up on a bet of some sort.

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once again, I'm completely blown away...
literally? grin.gif

1) Primeau was injured for 3/4 of the season, and had little impact on our PK stats for the year.

2) I wouldn't count Aucoin as the greatest PK asset the Flames had last season. I liked him, but he is too slow.

3) Sutter specifically acquired Sjostrom because he is an elite penalty killer. So, if you want, "Laces" can take Primeau's spot.

fair enough about Primeau... i looked at per game stats, not total ice time stat. Primeau was the leading forward penalty killer while healthy... which as you've mentioned wasn't much.

I never mentioned "Aucoin as the greatest PK asset the Flames had last season" or "elite penalty killer" as Demonous_Xodus suggested...

I simply mentioned the PK would be effected by missing him as a first unit Pker... He earned the 2 most minutes on the PK last yr... a PK that was 4th in the league... if you say he wasn't a key part... OK...

my assumption - 2nd most ice time short handed as a D = 1st unit. or does your 2nd unit get more ice than the 1st unit?

You're comparing apples to oranges. The Canucks were under AV both years you compared, right? I wouldn't expect there to be a significant difference as the system was the same.

Wrong. The Canucks worked a far more offensive system thanks to the increase in offensive assets AV had to play with. Here's an interesting fact for you.... The system any team plays is dictated by the team's personnel more than the coach. Hence the difference between systems implemented when AV coached in 07 vs last yr or Anahiem Babcock vs Detroit Babcock.

Coaches get fired when personnel changes and they fail to accomodate.... or a team wishes to implement a fresh new system more conducive to their personnel, and 'decide to go in a different direction'.

It's quite apparent that you haven't grasped that the Flames cleaned house with the coaching staff. Out is Keenan, and in is B. Sutter. Sutter believes in systems, and a defense first philosophy. This is a complete 180 from Keenan, and I expect dramatic improvements in all defensive statistics. I won't even get into Keenan's terrible play management. There are so many variables that have instantly improved this off-season that I don't see how vast improvements cannot occur.

I do understand the cleaned house idea.... i just don't share your opinion that's it will flip the organization over. but fair enough... its your opinion.

And any way you slice it, Bouwmeester can only improve the Flames' defensive statistics, and he is a vast improvement over Aucoin.

The best defensive Pkers are usually the more experienced ones. Aucoin had that... and he significantly helped the PK to 4th best in the league. Not saying JBo won't be as effective... but we'll see how the flames rank this yr.

It's quite clear you don't know what you are talking about.

come on now... any real need to get personal like that. let's have conversation that's not manic. not my style... if you actually want to have a back and forth i think we can do better than that.

Anyway, I would never do a sig bet with you, because I'd sooner kill myself than have a Canucks sig on my account_2.
speaks for itself

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And if you think that B. Sutter is going to coach anything like Keenan, then...I don't know what to say.

Aucoin is an elite Pker... Aucoin is the greatest PK asset the Flames have... and now Sutter is gonna coach like Keenan... jeez.

So much for having a logical conversation...
anything other opinion people which to credit me with....

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Codes wrote:
DL44, don't be dumb.  Go back and read what you wrote.  Everything I have mentioned
was implicated
in how your wrote your argument.

1) The Flames' PK will suffer because Aucoin is gone.  Reads: Aucoin was one of the Flames' most important PKers.

 

point is you guys are implying to the extreme... sometimes it helps if you stop actually read what's written instead trying read between the lines looking for something that wasn't there. All i was saying was exactly what say later in this post... 
" Aucoin was a big part of our PK". that is all. he was the 2nd most used Dman on the 4th ranked PK.  My expectation is that as that established chemistry has been disturbed and therefore the ranking should be expected to fall.
2) You don't believe the Flames' defensive statistics will change much.  Reads: the coaching philosophy and systems won't change, or will have little effect.

I never said they wouldn't change much... i said i don't expect a 180 turnaround from last yr's numbers.  And how the hell do you even stretch that mean coaching philosophy and systems  won't change???

Which is complete BS.

agreed.

 But, it's silly to think that the Flames' PK is suddenly in trouble because he's not part of it, especially since he was replaced with Bouwmeester.  

again... i never said the flames PK was in trouble (I'll add that to the list).  I said i expect a drop from 4th ranking of last yr.  We'll see how it plays out.  you've added Sjorstrom... which is a nice piece.  But overall i think Flames fan is again underrating the outgoing player... Like Cammellari was all of a sudden a one trick pony when he left.

 I guess you're actually right: he was the Flames most elite PKer at that point. 
laugh.gif

wow.... keep it going. 
Actually, maybe it's my opinion that he Bestest in whole world!! Teams wish they they could decline a penalty when Aucoin is killing it. %*#@ sakes.

So really, I don't get why your complaining.  

seriously? you don't?

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I'll take ya up on a bet.  I think the stats for the flames defensively are going to be a heck alot more solid overall.  I'm even going to suggest that we would be ranked top ten in GAA, SoGA, and Save %.

Sjostrom replaces Primeau on the penalty kill, thats what he was specifically picked  up for.  Him and Blair Betts formed the best penalty kill in the league last year with the Rangers, I see no difference here.  We can throw in Nystrom, Glencross, any of those to penalty kill and I expect our PK to stay about where it is give or take a couple of spots.  With the focus on defense and the system put in place, our GAA WILL improve to top ten.  From where you're sitting, you may not see it, but by the end of next year, it will be.  I think Flames fans are in better position to judge their team's style of play from the past few years as we've watched alot of their games and you just notice little things that are different in their play style.  Their playstyle will be different this year under Sutter.

ummm... you know they haven't played a game yet right....

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It's true, DL44, the Flames haven't played a game yet.  It's funny that you're allowed to predict that the Flames' defensive statistics won't improve over last years, yet Flames fans aren't allowed to predict they will improve.

eek.gif 

Stick to the Canucks, buddy.  

(not your buddy)

Wow... now i've said somewhere that the flames defensive stats won't improve over last years?!?

I think this purposely misrepresenting/misquoting me is annoyingly childish and petty.
spinning my comments to one side just so you can make a comment back.  it's quite transparent and obvious you lack any skills of debate.
Either that or you have the comprehension skills of a... let's just say we just need to improve them.

It's impossible to have an intelligent conversation when only one person is willing to contribute.

I don't know... is it fun what you do?  maybe i'll try it...

oh... and my comment to FlamesFanMan was a tongue-in-cheek response to the bolded part of the quote... which was probably obvious to everyone other than yourself.  Ask yourself - why is that?
PM me and i'll tell ya.

Since i'm now done squabbling pointlessly with codes... Back on topic of my glorious thread. .. 

What the hell comparison are we on?

Defense vs Defense
Defensive scoring vs Defensive scoring
Kipper vs Luongo
Sutter vs AV
Saddledome vs GM Place
Bourque vs Kesler
Burrows vs Glencross
Backlund vs Hodgson
McGratten vs Hordichuk
Downtown vs Downtown

I like Iggy/Ollie vs Sedins...
what are we going to see transpire scoring wise?

The Sedins are good for 80-86 pts next yr each... virtual lock without injury.
The Wildcards are really on the Flames side of the ball.
Iggy is a obviously a 90 pt player... he coming off a down yr (goals-wise) but the thing is he's capable of exploding to 50-50 season.  Will he?  Under a more defensive system... with less forward depth than last yr?
Joinken has a 35-50 season in him like he had 2 seasons ago definitely... I think he's a virtual lock for 30g... it's his assist level that's in question.
Will Ollie-Iggy be able to gain chemistry..  I think with these two, it will be a lot more dependent on who the 3rd forward is on the line.
I think Iggy will struggle in goal scoring because of the lack of a threatening second line... but will flourish in the assist department like last yr with a full yr of Ollie with him.  Just like last yr he set up Cammie countless times.. he'll set up Ollie.  probably more effectively than Ollie sets up Iggy.
Iggy for 87-92 and Ollie for 70-75 if Sutter can find a regular top line winger for them -- (i've heard Bourque a lot and Boyd and Dawes....)

What do you expect to see outta Iggy/Ollie considering - The New Sutter Defensive System, chemistry, linemates, other factors,  etc.
Did they even have chemistry last yr?

thoughts?

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DL44, you are a Canucks fan, am i right in assuming this? What do you mean "lack of a threatening second line"? Bourque Langkow Moss/Dawes/Lundmark is far more threatening than any of the Canuck's lines (except the first one of course) To top it off, the third line (Boyd Conroy Dawes/Moss) is very underrated IMO

Obviously, i have Glencross on the top line, and as i have said numerous times, his speed opens the ice for the relatively slower Iginla and Jokinen. I see no glaring problems in the flames line up, though this is, of course, on paper.

I wasn't comparing the Flames second line to the Canucks at all..  it was a stand alone opinion based on the fact the majority of Flames fans have penciled in Bourque for the top line winger. You're one of the few (only one?) with Glencross on the top line. I think taking him out of the role he plays very effectively and putting him a scoring role on a top line is risky... but hey, it worked for Burrows.

So what i was thinking:  of the personnel left  after assuming a Bourque-Ollie-Iggy top line, i didn't consider the remaining potential 2nd line combos "threatening".  They may end up being effective... but i don't know if i see a mix in there that would catch fire like the (Bourque-Langkow-Bertuzzi) did for awhile before injuries took over (correct me on the exact combonition, but i think that was the one last yr). That would leave a 2nd line of  - Langkow and 2 of Lundmark/Glencross/Boyd/Dawes/Moss. Nothing i would consider threatening.

Altho looking at that thread now, more people in that "Flames line combo" thread are now favoring keeping Bourque with Langkow on the second line and having Boyd/Dawes or Moss on the top line... That's at least a more proven combo on the 2nd... Potentially a servicable and good second line... more threatening, but at a cost of a significant downgrade at top line LW.  (then there is the Langkow on the top line, Ollie on the second)

We'll wait and see how it plays out.... but i stand by my opinion based on Bourque on the top line..

I wouldn't mind seeing this:

Ollie-Langkow-Iginla

Bourque-Boyd-Glencross

How you like that top 6 six.

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Who will have the better offensive season?

Bouwmeester or Bieksa?

Goals and assists.

Assuming Bieksa is a Canuck next year.

Points of debate:

- Bouwmeester coming from an inferior offensive team thats scored 20 less goals last season. But going to be playing on a more defensive minded calgary team expected to score less this season.

- Bieksa may see his minutes drop as the Canucks blueline has become much deeper this season. Will still see prime PP time.

- How will Bouwmeester be used on the flames... primary defense, or primary offense. Obviously an all-around dman, but I think more of his minutes will be used for prime defensive duty along with Regher... Phaneuf probably used in prime offensive support situations and faceoffs.

Last yr...

Bouwmeester

15g 27a 42pts

Led team in mins/gm. 26:59

2nd on panther D in pp ice. 4:16

2nd on team in PP points. 21

Led team in ES mins/gm. 19:17

Bieksa

11g 32a 43pts.

Led team in mins/gm. 23:29

Led canuck D in PP min/gm. 3:53

Led team in PP points. 25

2nd in ES min/gm 16:59

Bieksa was the more efficient producer. Bouwmeester was a fricken workhorse averaging 27 mins/gm... averaging!

Like Bieksa, JBo with calgary may see his workload dissipate relative to Florida. A little deeper defense (altho a top 4/5 of Bo, Allen, McCabe, Ballard and Boyton was pretty good). Kinda suggests his minutes won't drop by much. maybe down to 25 minutes a gm.

anyways...

all things considered...

Who will have the better offensive season?

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Mikael Backlund VS Cody Hodgson

Fundamental skills are in favour of Backlund.  Two-way play is in favour of Hodgson.  Backlund is faster, Hodgson is stronger.  Hodgson possesses leadership (captained a team Canada junior squad that included Tavares and Evander Kane) and led said tournament in scoring with 5 goals and 11 assists in 6 games on a stacked Canadian squad.  Backlund was second on team Sweden with 5 goals and 2 assists, and was considered one of Sweden's top three players.  Hodgson was the CHL player of the year (though Backlund was the WHL/CHL player of the week April 13-19).  Backlund has more potential, but Hodgson is more developed.

Hodgson > Backlund

...

for now.

a comparison from back on page 3....

Mikael%20Backlund.jpg vs cody%20hodgson.jpg

Mikael Backlund......................Cody Hodgson

March 17, 1989......................February 18, 1990

183cm, 6'0....................................182cm, 6'0

~195lbs.........................................~190lbs

..

The CHL regular season.. Backlund came over part way thru... (adjustments, WHL vs OHL etc)

Backlund 28gms 12g 18a 30pts

Hodgson 53gms 43g 49a 92pts

This yr's CHL playoffs...

Backlund (20yrs old)- 21gms 12g 18a 30pts. Ranked 1st on his team in goals, 3rd in points.

Hodgson (19yrs old) - 19gms 11g 20a 31pts. Ranked 2nd in goals and 1st in points.

World Juniors

Backlund

2007 Sweden U18 6gm 6g 1a 7pts 17 yr old - Bronze (2nd in team scoring, 10th overall) 

2008 Sweden WJC 6gm 3g 4a 7pts 18 yr old - Silver (tied team leader in scoring, 12th overall)

2009 Sweden WJC 6gm 5g 2a 7pts 19 yr old - Silver (2nd in team scoring, 17th overall. 1st in team goals)

Hodgson

2008 Canada U18 7gm 2g 10a 12pts 17 yr old - Gold, Captain (Leading scorer in the tourney)

2009 Canada WJC 6gm 5g 11a 16pts 18 yr old - Gold (Leading scorer in the tourney)

Stats don't tell the whole story.... They don't measure intangibles, leadership ability or locker room presence.

Awards - from Wiki 

Backlund http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikael_Backlund

Won the TV-pucken MVP Award in 2006.

Won the TV-pucken Sven Tumba Award (Best Forward) in 2006.

Named CHL Player of the Week on April 21, 2009.

Hodgson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cody_Hodgson

(left off the player of the week/month awards and all-star stuff - too cluttered)

Named ADT Canada-Russia Challenge Player of the Game for Game 3, 2008.[13]

Won the William Hanley Trophy (OHL's Most Sportsmanlike) in 2009.

Won the Red Tilson Trophy (OHL's Most Outstanding Player) in 2009.

Named the CHL Player of the Year in 2009.

AHL

Hodgson joined the Manitoba Moose for their last 11 gms of the playoffs. 2g 4a 6pts in those 11gms vs men. Garnered a lot of praise from Arneil and earned more minutes as he promoted to the the top 6.

Will be great to hear about how they're doing at camp....  Hodgson is presently restricted to no contact due to his back.  they travel to edmonton to take on the U of A and also the oiler prospects.... don't know if he'll be playing.

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Burrows vs Bourque is an interesting comparison as well....... they both had breakout years and they will both be a big question marks heading into the start of the season. Will Burrows start with the Sedins? Can he repeat his goal scoring or was he on a hot streak? What line will Bourque play on? Was last year a fuke or was it the start of a constant 20 goal per season career?

Both scored pretty much all of their goals without the PP.

Both have their fans intrigued at how many they can score if given regular PP duty.
Burrows established his chemistry with the Twins, Bourque established his with Langkow and Bertuzzi.

As Ace said/asked... will bourque remain paired with Langkow, or will they attempt to move him to the first line.
I think he deserves a shot at the top line, but i think keeping him with Langkow gives the Flames 2 decent scoring lines.
I think it would be too much to ask from Langkow or Ollie to carry a line with 2 of Boyd/Dawes/Moss/Glencross/Lundmark.

I think it would go X-Ollie-Iggy and Bourque-Langkow-X or X-Langkow-Iggy and Bourque-Ollie-X
Bourque-Ollie/Langkow-Iggy would result in a second line of X-Langkow/Ollie-X : not great on paper.
Maybe a Ollie-Langkow-Iggy line united Bourque and Glencross together again... (The flames version of Frick n Frack)

The canucks have more forward depth, but it's still going to be a balls-in-a-hopper situation. All we know - Twins-1st line, Kesler-2nd line, and Hodichuk-Johnson 4th line.
If they put Sameulsson with the twins, it will create 4 very versatile lines for the canucks... at the expense of breaking a proven line.. BUT putting Kesler-Burrows back together with their increased skill and confidence level could be very effective. Frick-n-Frack.

Sedin-Sedin-Sami
Burrows-Kesler-Demitra--Grabner
Raymond-Wellwood-Bernier--Hodgson
Hordichuk-Johnson-Rypien--Hansen

Lots of camp battles this yr.(that's without discussing the 8-9 NHL capable Dmen)
Grabner should get a long look this pre-season with Demitra out for a bit. 
Ron Petrovicky and Dave Scatchard are on the camp roster to push the young into earning their spots.
A roster spot will not be handed to Hansen, Hodgson, Raymond, Rypien....

It's getting so close!

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[quote name='cinlow wrote:


The_Don']I am not sure what you guys are expecting out of Sutter's "system", but so far I have read that it will improve the defensive game, offensive game and transition game. Now maybe I am being skeptikal, but if there was such a system that excelled in all facets of the game, would it not be used by every team in the league by now? I mean, you have to sacrifice one of those areas in order to excel in another, no?

Well, I guess first you would have to establish what system the Flames had before offensively, defensively, transitionally and in special teams. Some people would say the Flames had hardly any system at all last year so Sutter having any system at all should be an upgrade.

This may not translate directly to more Goals For for the Flames, we were already #8 last year in that stat but I would expect that the goals we get would be more consistent and have a bigger impact in winning games since we should be preventing the other team from scoring. Basically that means I would rather win games 3-1 than lose games 6-7. I would also like to never see an extended scoreless streak on the power play.

Also, I think some people would suggest that the Red Wings deploy a system that excels in all aspects of the game...

That's because personnel dictates what system your team implores.  The Red Wings are deep and have players that excel in multiple facets of the game... not exactly typical throughout the league. 

Don's point stands... This sutter system is taking on a magical entity. Sutter's system will apparently rectify all that was wrong with the flames game last season.
For the record, i do expect the Flames to improve defensively and on the forecheck.  But i'm hearing all sorts of other great stuff about this system...

Sutter's system will "fill in the blank"... it's been said/argued here.  
Sutter's system will improve the defense
Sutter's system will get Phaneuf back on track
Sutter's system will improve our transition game
Sutter's system will improve the PP
Sutter's system will promote puck possession
Sutter's system will increase the forecheck
Sutter's system will help the kids flourish
Sutter's system will make us very difficult to play against

What is the weakness with this system?
Why didn't it help NJ get out of the 1st round?

You know what Sutter's system is going to be... playing the cards he's been dealt and trying to maximize their performance better than Keenan did.
If you got a lot of speed and skill and great outlet passers - puck possession, transition game
If you got limited skill, but some speed - you dump and chase.
If you got a lot of speed - you send two forcheckers in
If you got problems finishing 5-on-5 - you trap
If your PP has skill on it - you set plays up down low
If your PP has no skill on it, but you got a QB - you set up the hammer from the point and rebound

What i saw out NJ last yr was an aggressive 2 man forecheck forcing teams to accommodate. when they did, it was basic looking hockey after that...  They had spurts of aggression where they would send 2 in every once in awhile.... but then it was shot blockers blocked shots, puck movers moved the puck, playmakers made plays, the better shooters shot.
He can come in and hope for any particular style, but during camp, his personnel will determine how the system unfolds.

What it looks like right now... Great Defense. great goalie. 4 actual top 6 players. Quick forwards.  This team is built to be defensive. A style Keenan wouldn't be ideal for.

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And for the record, i heard the phrase 'Extremely Talented' used a lot more than 'Great system' when describing teams like the Wings, Pens and Hawks.

a reference to personnel. 

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Who will play more games this season...

Bourque or Demitra?

Bourque should start out with the quick advantage this season with Demitra on the shelf for 6 weeks... so the initial 3ish weeks of the season.

If he returns on, or around the 22nd of Oct... that would be 9 games missed.

---Weird coincidence actually now that i think about it.... that's the perfect amount of games to give Hodgson before returning him to Jr!

Bourque should follow Demitra to the trainer's room shortly there after. Anyone know if he's healthy yet? has he been skating? What was his late season injury again? It's Demitra's shoulder after fanning on a hit.

Games played since the lockout...

Bourque: 77, 44, 62, 58

Demitra: 58, 71, 68, 69

Demitra has been more healthy over the past 3 seasons.... a fact that astounds me!

Bourque... last i heard he was supposed to be ready for camp... but i haven't heard confirmation.

Anyways...

Who will play more games this season?

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With this ongoing discussion about how much Sutter's System is going to overhaul the Flames this yr...

I must ask...

Which NHL coach has the better 'System'?

Alain V or Brent S ?

Both are supposed defensive specialists... one is obviously a lot more experienced at the NHL level, the other a lot of success at the World Jrs.

Well... AV with a lot more NHL experience.

Sutter still has potential going into his 3rd season as a coach. This will definitely be a defining yr year for the coach's systeme considering the personnel his brother has given him.

He's coming off 3 disappointing WHL seasons... and 2 decent yrs with the Devils, but with no post-season success...

took a 100+pt division winning team and left them a 100pt division winning team. But he's still got the shine of the Gold medals to keep his mystique fresh.

Sutter has 2 world junior golds, and a memorial cup...

AV, is a 2 time Jack Adams nominee.... one time winner.

Has twice taken a Vancouver team predicted to miss the playoffs preseason to division titles... winning a round each yr.

Let's see if Sutter can finally be the coach that makes the flames actually live up to pre season expectations... a team that i don't think has had an over achieving team since the '04 run (correct me if i'm wrong on that).

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[quote name='cross16 wrote:


DL44']With this ongoing discussion about how much Sutter's System is going to overhaul the Flames this yr...

I must ask...

Which NHL coach has the better 'System'?

Alain V or Brent S ?

Both are supposed defensive specialists... one is obviously a lot more experienced at the NHL level, the other a lot of success at the World Jrs.

Well... AV with a lot more NHL experience.

Sutter still has potential going into his 3rd season as a coach. This will definitely be a defining yr year for the coach's systeme considering the personnel his brother has given him.

He's coming off 3 disappointing WHL seasons... and 2 decent yrs with the Devils, but with no post-season success...

took a 100+pt division winning team and left them a 100pt division winning team. But he's still got the shine of the Gold medals to keep his mystique fresh.

Sutter has 2 world junior golds, and a memorial cup...

AV, is a 2 time Jack Adams nominee.... one time winner.

Has twice taken a Vancouver team predicted to miss the playoffs preseason to division titles... winning a round each yr.

Let's see if Sutter can finally be the coach that makes the flames actually live up to pre season expectations... a team that i don't think has had an over achieving team since the '04 run (correct me if i'm wrong on that).

IMO, Sutter's system. I think the New NHL you have to be aggressive and control the puck/time of pocession. YOu can't sit back and protect leads. AV still does that too much. I know he amended it last year and they are playing more open in the first part of games, but they still are too passive too often IMO. Tahts why Chicago beat you guys. Vancouver sat back trying to protect a lead, softended the forecheck and Chicago used their speed to force bad penalties. I don't think AV's system is open enough to win in today's NHL. Defensive hockey starts with offence now.

Having said that, I think you guys (yourself and Don) are right to question how effective Sutter's system is going to be becuase quite frankily your dealing with alot of people that don't quite understand the impact of a system. Technically, the system isn't changing. I expect Sutter to employ the same system Keenan did. Puck pursuit. Really coaching style should be the word used not systems. I prefered Keenan's system to AVs last year, but I do like AVs coaching style. He stressed the small details you need to be held accounability and execute on a consistant basis. I think when the Flames were healthy and executing their system, they were better than the Canucks. However, the Canucks were far more consistant. Thats a testiment to AV. So thats what I think its comes down to. Its not systems, its coaching style. Sutter will stress the finer points that Keenan didn't and to me defense is just about small points. Where is your zone, what side of the puck you are on, where is your man etc etc etc. Those are small details that gets overlooked if your coach is a big picture type of guy. Will that sacrifice some offence, sure. Some will. But just not that much, and I also think the Flames have quite a bit of offence they could give back. Untill they injuries they were top 3 in the league. I kow they finished 7th, but had they had been healthy, they probably finish top 4 or 5. Falling back 3 or 4 spots (which I think is about 20 plus goals) is really not that big a deal.

Probably one of the most insightful posts in this thread.. nice job cross...

I'm sick of how the term "system" or " new system" has been thrown around here... 
translation -  new coach paying  more attention to defensive detail than the last guy.

It's my contention that what's been wrong with the flames over the last few yrs hasn't been the coaches, it's been in the locker room.  There was a significant change in the personality of the club after the blue collar run in '04...
I think the GM Sutter should be on the hot seat this yr.
IF Coach Sutter comes in, and it's status quo... ie. Kipper is Kipper of the last couple yrs, the D stats show slight improvement at best, the PP still struggles after changing all the coaches, no division title, and a another first round exit....... i think it would be safe to point the finger directly at the personnel of the team (the leadership group especially) and the person responsible for putting together and retaining the personnel - GM Sutter.
If that were to happen, Playfair and Keenan would almost feel vindicated...
Just saying IF... i don't think it will.

And i agree with your AV take as well... But the thing AV has going for him and why's earned his extension, is his ability accommodate and roll with adversity, ability to modify his approach according to personnel and probably most important, keeping his players accountable.  ( One thing sorely lacking in the handling of Iginla.... altho i can understand why your coaches of the past give the best player on the team a break, it doesn't sit well in the locker room... and i wanna say Phaneuf as well... but  i don't remember him being losing shifts or ice last yr at all).
AV continuously rewards players that are going, demoting those that aren't (almost to a fault)... but it led to Burrows breaking out.  Also led to the burying of Wellwood and Raymond during the 2nd half of the season, but also their reemergence in the playoffs. 

We'll see how he modifies his approach this yr after the Chicago series... I blame that more on the defensive brain farts than the team sitting back trying to protect a lead... I think every team would do the same thing in  playoffs when you have a lead... but most were way more competent at holding than the canucks last spring.
altho it did drive me nuts when they decided to sit and protect a 2 goal lead for 50 minutes.  

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And also dont get me wrong, I actually like AV as a coach and can admit he is a good coach. I think his coaching style is great, and if he had a more open system I think the Canucks would be far more dangerous and he woudl be touted as one of the top 5 coaches in the league.
he's never had the horses to play an open style... you need offensive personnel to play an open system, and we haven't been that lucky.  gets back to the whole ' your players dictate the system implemented'. Remember up until last yr Burrows hadn't shown he was anything but a 3rd liner... Kesler was  a HOPE to play on the 2nd line.
We went into last season like this:
Sedin-Sedin-Demitra
Raymond-Wellwood-Bernier
Burrows-Kesler-Hansen
Hordichuk-Johnson-Rypien
Tough to open it up with such an offensively unproven lineup outside the top line.  3rd line was considered an elite level checking line.... not for scoring.  The lineup screamed play defensive.

This yr, the lineup is deeper and a little more established than last yr... we'll see how AV plays it.

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Not really.  New Jersey wasn't that much better of an offensive lineup than the Canucks and they opened it up. I also would't call the New York Rangers better than the Canucks on paper and they opened up their system.
define what exactly you mean by opened it up... i would argue it was still personnel based... it would be hard to be a stingy defensive team when you've added Zherdev and Antropov.

I also heard the same thing from Canucks last year, that AV was going to open up his system. Yet it wasn't until later in the season, and fairly reluctantly, that he silghtly opened it up.

i don't recall that. we just had a huge personnel and leadership change over.  most predicted us to extremely impotent on offense and fail to make the playoffs...  that's what i remember... i don't remember expectations for AV to change his approach off the get go... it was an evolution as the season when on because his depth was producing very well for him. 

and what do you mean "fairly reluctantly"... did you hear he was against such a approach or suggesting something else?

 About 90% of the time, coaches do not change from their philosphies.

 

and these are the coaches that get fired when they lack the flexibility to coach the style ideal to the strengths of his players as rosters change over time...  AV has actually demonstrated the flexibility to coach with the assets he's been given extremely well.  Hence Gillis extending him.

And sitting on leads, regardless of his personel, has always been his way of doing things. I would be shocked if that changed. I expect the same as last year. It be a little more agressive until they get a lead and then slowly get more and more passive and defensive as the game goes on.
Would you really want it any other way?  You stick with what works, don't you? And i think we're at the point in this league where you see and kinda expect that approach out of every team in the league... What do you think Sutter's approach is with a lead?  isn't that what every team already tries to do?  Some teams just do it better than others.

Vancouver's record leading after the 2nd period last yr... 30-0-3. The yr before... 27-1-1.  They bombed in the playoffs vs Chi at holding their leads... but like i said before, i think that was more of an indivualistic issue than a philosophic issue.
NJ last yr was 39-1-1... something tells me if calgary can pull that off this yr, you would be stoked with a shut-it-down approach.
It's a matter of effectiveness.. obviously if your team sucks at holding leads when they sit back... you don't do it...

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Are you aware that we will have Jokinen for a whole season? He'll get probably around 35 goals, which is pretty much replacing Cammalleri's totals.

Bouwmeester replaces Aucoin.

Dawes, Sjostrom and mabye Theo Fleury will replace Bertuzzi.

Goals won't be an issue for Calgary this season. They never have been.

  

If you consider Jokinen a replacement for Cammalleri... then you've gotta consider a replacement Lombardi (46pts in 59gms - better pts than Bourque).

So then your talking about Dawes and Sjostrom replacing Bertuzzi and Lombardi.

oh, and maybe Fleury... unlikely but ok...

also if you got 3 bodies to hopefully make up the production of 2...  body for body, there's a missing piece of the offensive pie. An overall decrease of forward depth...  I thought this had been established already?

There's an overall downgrade at forward.

Overall the defense is expected to contribute more than they did last yr... Bouwmeester is an attractive offensively capable Dman that should take significant defensive responsibility off of Phaneuf.  If Phaneuf can be used in all the primary offensive situations, and leave the prime defensive responsibility to JBo, Regher and Sarich, he should have his best offensive season yet.  It should make up some of the difference of the lost points upfront.

The Flames total O shouldn't drop too much... but the realistic expectation is some sort of drop.

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Interesting scheduling notes...... Vancouver has a 5 game, 2- 4 game and a 14 game road schedule. Calgary's longest road trip is 3 games and they do this 4 times. Vancouver also plays Calgary twice when they are on the back end of consecutive games whereas Calgary starts there back to back games against Vancouver but dont have to play back to back against them.

If the 14 game road trip wasnt bad enough, they have 3 back to back series during that stretch. For a team that already battles injuries, this wont help!

Big advantage for Calgary when it comes to schedules.......

Actually when it comes to schedules, Vancouver actually has a significant advantage over Calgary this yr...

Calgary is the highest travelling team in the league.. Vancouver doesn't even crack the top 5 this yr! a list they have routinely topped yr after yr.
Vancouver does have the 14 gamer... but it broken up into 2 sevens...  in terms of travel overall, Gillis met with the league and has minimized his travel by making the away schedule more concise - for example... (I think) 2 back to backs in LA where we visit both Ana and LA (no travel)... as well as being at home for a few back-to backs unlike calgary... the back-to-back comparison was earlier in the thread where it showed van's advantage.

Despite the facts you've pointed out in the schedules... our east coast trips are much better.... no more NY, Minny, Pitt trips.. 
Another Gillis offseason/off-ice priority that will benefit the canucks going forward.... like personal chefs, personal trainers, sleep studies, fatigue studies, hockey's version of moneyball, etc.... 
the guy is an innovator.... and it's paying dividends (or it will).

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[quote name='TheAce wrote:


DL44 wrote:

TheAce']Interesting scheduling notes...... Vancouver has a 5 game, 2- 4 game and a 14 game road schedule. Calgary's longest road trip is 3 games and they do this 4 times. Vancouver also plays Calgary twice when they are on the back end of consecutive games whereas Calgary starts there back to back games against Vancouver but dont have to play back to back against them.

If the 14 game road trip wasnt bad enough, they have 3 back to back series during that stretch. For a team that already battles injuries, this wont help!

Big advantage for Calgary when it comes to schedules.......

Actually when it comes to schedules, Vancouver actually has a significant advantage over Calgary this yr...
Calgary is the highest travelling team in the league.. Vancouver doesn't even crack the top 5 this yr! a list they have routinely topped yr after yr.
Vancouver does have the 14 gamer... but it broken up into 2 sevens...  in terms of travel overall, Gillis met with the league and has minimized his travel by making the away schedule more concise - for example... (I think) 2 back to backs in LA where we visit both Ana and LA (no travel)... as well as being at home for a few back-to backs unlike calgary... the back-to-back comparison was earlier in the thread where it showed van's advantage.

Despite the facts you've pointed out in the schedules... our east coast trips are much better.... no more NY, Minny, Pitt trips.. 
Another Gillis offseason/off-ice priority that will benefit the canucks going forward.... like personal chefs, personal trainers, sleep studies, fatigue studies, hockey's version of moneyball, etc.... 
the guy is an innovator.... and it's paying dividends (or it will).

Calgary has a higher travelling schedule because there road trips are broken up in 3's. But if you take a look at there overall schedule, I'd probably take there's. There road trips are set up the same way ( Montreal, Buffalo, Toronto) home ( Detroit, Columbus, Nashville) . The travel between those cities are very minimal and its only 3 games then back home. 7 game road trips are horrible even if it has a break. Especially considering we will have 8 players playing big roles during the Olympics.

I know Gillis spoke to the league and has brought in many people to help ease things with players. He is getting a good reputation and is bringing some class to Vancouver. Maybe its because of our road trips that he decided to bring in the extra d-men..... especially knowing that a few of them are injury prone

another significant scheduling change is supposed to be the way the rest days are set up prior to the east coast games... as well as during.  been awhile since i've taken a look at the schedule... but it has been discussed as a very favorable schedule for us... apparently it's the best schedule we've ever had... even despite the two 7-gamers.

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The Flames also have a lot more back to back games. I think the Canucks have 8 back to backs while the Flames are looking at 13 and of those 13 back to backs, some of them are back to back (ie. 4 games in 5 days). Even with the 7 game road trips that the Canucks have, I would personally rather have the Canuck's schedule.

The Flames:
Oct 8/9: @Oilers, Stars
Oct 12/13: @Hawks, @BJs
Nov 4/5: @Stars, @Blues
Nov 13/14: @Sabres, @Leafs
Nov 27/28: @Red Wings, @ BJs
December 27/28: Canucks, @Oilers
December 30/31: Kings, Oilers
Jan 5/6: @Predators, @Wild
Jan 8/9: BJs, @Canucks
Jan 17/18: @Ducks, @Sharks
Jan 27/28: @Stars, @Coyotes
Feb 5/6: @Panthers, @Lightning
Mar 14/15: @Canucks, RedWings
Mar 27/28: @Bruins, @Capitals


The Canucks:

Oct 16/17: @Flames, Wild
Oct 24/25: Leafs, Oilers
Oct 29/30: @ Kings, @ Ducks
Nov 5/6: @ Wild, @Stars
Nov 28/29: Oilers, Sharks
Dec 2/3: @Devils, @Flyers
Dec 26/27: Oilers, @Flames
Jan 20/21: @Oilers, Stars
Feb 11/12: @Panthers, @CBJ
Mar 2/3: @CBJ, @Wings
Mar 9/10: @Avs, @Yotes
Mar 13/14: Sens, Flames
Mar 23/24: @Oilers, Ducks
April 1/2: @Kings, @Ducks

Both teams have 14 back-to-backs this season.
Calgary has just 1 back-to-back where they don't travel between games.
The Canucks have 5... huge difference right there.

The ducks benefit by being on the back half 3/4 times vs the canucks. 
CBJ benefit by having 3/4 of their games vs the flames during a back-to-back for the flames... twice on the back half.

22/28 games for the flames are road games. 18/28 for the canucks.

Huge compression of back-to-backs where there are 4 in 3 weeks for the canucks - Oct 16th to Nov 6th. 
Even worse for Calgary with 4 back-to-backs in just 2 weeks between Dec 27th to Jan 9th.

Canucks have 3 back-to-backs during the 14 game split road trip... they end the road trip with a back-back and start the subsequent home stand with another back-to-back.

Calgary has the heaviest travel schedule in the league this yr, a title usually reserved for the Canucks, and the flames back-to-back schedule gives a glimpse of why...
Gillis' meeting with the NHL last yr where they worked out a preliminary road schedule seems to have worked out nicely since the Canucks (a team usually with the worst travel schedule in the league) was not even in the top 5 highest travelling teams this yr.  It's a one of the most efficient schedules they have ever had, even with the 2 back-to-back 7 gamers...

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