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Discussion & Debate Thread: Flames and Canucks

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I like the 'nucks chances this year, but then again, I like ours just as much. This early into the season is, well, far too early to be making any predictions or assumptions though.

It all comes down to the same thing every year..... who wants it more. Both of our teams, IMO have the talent to go that extra mile. So I guess in June, we will see who wants it more. Simple as that.

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Alright, let's compare the defensive cores here:

For the last few years, it was Calgary had the top-end talent, but Vancouver had the depth. I don't think I'd be alone in saying that Vancouver has the edge in both categories. I would say both teams have great top end talent, but Vancouver still has the depth to go with it.

Calgary's D Depth Chart:

Jay Bouwmeester

Ian White

Mark Giordano

Robyn Regehr

Corey Sarich

TJ Brodie

Adam Pardy

Steve Staios

Vancouver's D Depth Chart:

Dan Hamhuis

Alex Edler

Christian Ehrhoff

Keith Ballard

Kevin Bieksa

Sami Salo

Andrew Alberts

Aaron Rome

Ryan Parent

Now comparing the defencemen one by one:

Jay Bouwmeester vs. Dan Hamhuis:

Breakdown - Both are the big minutes guys for their teams that play in all situations. Bouwmeester is a top notch skater, Hamhuis is not. But what he lacks in speed and agility he makes up for with great passing and vision, and extremely smart plays that he makes very quickly. Hamhuis is more physical and more of a natural leader. Bouwmeester is more capable of joining the rush and playing with the puck in the offensive zone.

Verdict - Hard to say. Based on talent and what they bring, I'd call it a push, but if Bouwmeester doesn't improve on last year's season the edge goes to Hamhuis.

Ian White vs. Alex Edler:

Breakdown - Both have great offensive abilities and play a lot of minutes. Edler is more physical but White is a better skater. Both have big shots from the point, but Edler's is one of the hardest in the league. Both have struggled with consistency with contributing offensively. Edler sees a lot more time on the PK. Edler is still only 24 and has made leaps in every season so far. His physicality has finally caught up to his frame. Bold prediction here, but I am saying Edler gets more Norris votes than anyone else on the two teams.

Verdict - Alex Edler gets the square.

Mark Giordano vs. Christian Ehrhoff:

Breakdown - Both are top notch offensive forwards. Both skate very well and posses great offensive skills. Neither are overly physical, though Giordano is a little more than Ehrhoff. Both can be utilized in defensive situations as well. Ehrhoff gets the edge as a PP QB and despite both being great offensive defencemen, Ehrhoff has twice broken 40 points while Giordano's career high is 30.

Verdict - Edge goes to Ehrhoff

Robyn Regehr vs. Keith Ballard:

Breakdown - Not the best comparison, with Regehr being the shutdown guy and Ballard more of an all-round guy. Both can throw big hits. Ballard is more mobile and possesses more offensive ability while Regehr is a rock on his own zone and rarely gets beat. Ballard is an underrated puck-carrier but needs to pick his spots better when going for the big hit.

Verdict - Edge to Regehr, right now. I am going to watch him closely this season and see how much he slows down, if at all.

Corey Sarich vs. Kevin Bieksa:

Breakdown - Again, comparing different styles of defencemen. Sarich is the hard-nosed, shutdown guy. Bieksa, well, I'm not too sure what he is. Every month he seems to be someone different. Right now, he looks like a whole new man. His decisions are better than I've ever seen, and he seems to have his physicality and aggressiveness back. He is no longer pinching at the worst times and trying to do more than he is capable of. For now. Sarich, he is about as steady as they come. He's not going to add much offensively, but he is going to shut forwards down and throw some big hits. Bieksa has struggled with (freak) injuries, and Sarich has been as durable as anyone (save for last season).

Verditct - This is a tough one. All depends on which Bieksa you are comparing Sarich to. He has a much bigger upside, but also a much lower downside. The realist in me says a slight edge to Sarich.

TJ Brodie vs. Sami Salo:

Breakdown - This comparison isn't really fair to Brodie. Salo is a 13 or so year vet and Brodie is just a raw rookie. Salo does so many things well, and if he could stay healthy in any way he would be a lot higher on the depth chart anyways. But I do like Brodie and do think he will be a good defenceman for the Flames for a long time.

Verdict - Salo.

Adam Pardy vs. Andrew Alberts:

Breakdown - This is where the Canucks start to run away with the contest. Alberts had a rough short stint with the Canucks at the end of the season, but they gave him an ultimatum in the off-season and he came through and made Shane O'Brien unneeded. Pardy has looked like a promising young physical defenceman for a while but now doesn't seem like he will every be a top 4 defenceman.

Verdict - Alberts

Steve Staios vs. Aaron Rome/Ryan Parent:

Breakdown - The fact that the Canucks have two players here just speaks to their depth. The Canucks seem perfectly willing to let Rome play when he is in the line-up, he played 15 minutes last night. Staios seems like a shadow of his former self. And for 3 times the price!

Verdeict - Rome and/or Parent

Summary:

Jay Bouwmeester vs. Dan Hamhuis

Ian White vs. Alex Edler

Mark Giordano vs. Christian Ehrhoff

Robyn Regehr vs. Keith Ballard

Corey Sarich vs. Kevin Bieksa

TJ Brodie vs. Sami Salo

Adam Pardy vs. Andrew Alberts

Steve Staios vs. Aaron Rome/Ryan Parent

Just for fun, some offensive predictions:

Jay Bouwmeester - 34

Ian White - 41

Mark Giordano - 33

Robyn Regehr - 20

Corey Sarich - 12

TJ Brodie - 16

Adam Pardy - 5

Steve Staios - 6

Dan Hamhuis - 34

Alex Edler - 46

Christian Ehrhoff - 49

Keith Ballard - 31

Kevin Bieksa - 27

Sami Salo - 26 (40 or so games)

Andrew Alberts - 13

Aaron Rome - 6

Ryan Parent - 1

Thoughts?

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Id probably change some of the pairings.....

Hamhuis is our defensive stalwart so id pair him off with Regehr

Ballard or Edler is more comparable with Giordano because they are more all rounded who play with an edge

Ehrhoff vs Jay-Bo because I think these would be both teams # 1's and both have the offensive flare

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Agree with Ace - I don't like the way you made the pairings. That wrecks the analysis. 

Gio vs. Ehrhoff comparison, are you kidding me ? Ehrhoff s/b compared to Jbo.

Gio started slowly and tentatively last year but by the new year had emerged as a dominant D man on the Flames. Calling Gio not overly physical is off the mark even with expected Nuck bias.
___________

Have a look here at the work of the D Man that Scotty Bowman called the most improved D man in the NHL last year.





I also will go out on a limb here and predict 40+ points for Gio this year, he is just getting started and on a Flames team that is already slow out of the gate he is already standing out as one of the few that has come ready to play, him and Glencross.

No slight on Erhoff but I think we have seen the best that Erhoff can do, with Gio we are just beginning to see what he can do. Gio has not peaked and for this season I would give the nod to him. It is also not fair to stack Gio against Erhoff...

If you want to swing your analysis into the pairings that Ace suggested I think you will get a much more accurate picture and conclude fairly that it isn't a close as you make it out to be. The Nucks D is greatly improved this year but still in a top 5 D analysis the nod should go to Calgary in 3 out of 5 min with the overall caveat that the Nucks have a better bottom D. 

No argument from me on that, Staios may actually be the worst D man in the NHL at the moment. 

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Not to mention that if Gio were the QB on Van's PP, he is easily a 40+ pt guy.

I would just like to remind everyone that the Don started a similar comparison last year, attempting to argue that Mitchell was as good of a shut-down guy as Rerehr, Bieksa was better than Phaneuf (I think it was), on down the line, and the Nucks had way more depth than the Flames.  We all saw how right he was last year (/sarcasm), but what the hell, let's try it again this year.

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The Nucks are an offensive team. Calgary despite a terrible season last year still finished 5th overall in fewest GA. Hence a top 5 D team. Whether you want to credit the D or Kipper.

The Nucks did improve their D last off-season, no argument from me but they are not a top 5 D team. Overall it is hard to make that case although darn it, you got to give Don his kudos for trying.

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Not to mention that if Gio were the QB on Van's PP, he is easily a 40+ pt guy.

I would just like to remind everyone that the Don started a similar comparison last year, attempting to argue that Mitchell was as good of a shut-down guy as Rerehr, Bieksa was better than Phaneuf (I think it was), on down the line, and the Nucks had way more depth than the Flames.  We all saw how right he was last year (/sarcasm), but what the hell, let's try it again this year.

This can go both ways though..... Gio isnt even the QB on Calgary's PP so why would he be on Vancouver's ?  If Iginla played with the Sedins he'd score 50 goals.....  We could go on about 'ifs' all day long.  Either way, I dont think its a fair comparison between these 2 players.

I was also one of the guys who said that Mitchell was just as good as Regehr in the shutdown role and based on last year was I wrong?   Who's D would you say was better last year ?

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I won't break it down player by player but if I had to trade the entire Flyers D for that of either the Flames or Canucks I'd take the Flames corps.

It's the sum of the parts, not individual pieces.

I do think Don has over-rated Alberts & Parent. I've watched both play in Philly & both make a habit of falling short of expectations. They're 7th D @ best.

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The Nucks are an offensive team. Calgary despite a terrible season last year still finished 5th overall in fewest GA. Hence a top 5 D team. Whether you want to credit the D or Kipper.

The Nucks did improve their D last off-season, no argument from me but they are not a top 5 D team. Overall it is hard to make that case although darn it, you got to give Don his kudos for trying.

Id say Kipper but then im sure it would just come across as being a troll.....  Calgary as a team played a much more defensive style but I cant remember how many times at the end of the game threads id see " If it wasnt for Kipper.... "  or " Kipper is the only one that showed up today " .    When I look at teams who boasted  great D I look at how they also do when they dont have an amazing goalie to bail them out. Detroit for years could play Osgood, Legace and now Howard and it doesnt matter. Brodeur gets hurt for a lengthy time and the Devils were just as good playing with a back-up.

Not that it is a bad thing because I think it goes to show you how amazing Kipper is, but I think Calgary's defensive stats are helped out because of his play.....

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I won't break it down player by player but if I had to trade the entire Flyers D for that of either the Flames or Canucks I'd take the Flames corps.

It's the sum of the parts, not individual pieces.

I do think Don has over-rated Alberts & Parent. I've watched both play in Philly & both make a habit of falling short of expectations. They're 7th D @ best.

I think he has Alberts and Parent as 6th/7th D-men so I dont think he has over-rated them.... he just claims they are better than Staios and Pardy right now.

Im curious though as to your choice of the Flames D core over the Canucks D core....  can you explain more why you'd make that decision ?

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Not to mention that if Gio were the QB on Van's PP, he is easily a 40+ pt guy.

I would just like to remind everyone that the Don started a similar comparison last year, attempting to argue that Mitchell was as good of a shut-down guy as Rerehr, Bieksa was better than Phaneuf (I think it was), on down the line, and the Nucks had way more depth than the Flames.  We all saw how right he was last year (/sarcasm), but what the hell, let's try it again this year.

LOL, show me where I said that about Bieksa and Phaneuf.

And as for my Bouwmeester vs. Hamhuis comparison, they are both the all situation guys. Hamhuis more than Ehrhoff will be relied on in defensive situations and penalty kill, and is currently playing on the top defensive pairing for the Canucks.

Maybe Ehrhoff is the better comparison. But I don't think it would change the results much.

Bouwmeester vs. Ehrhoff - Push for now, if Bouwmeester struggles edge goes to Ehrhoff.

Regehr vs, Hamhuis - Hamhuis has the edge.

White vs. Ballard - Edge goes to White

Giordano vs. Edler - Edler still with the edge.

Canucks still win 3 out of 4 top 4 matchups.

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


C_worthy']Not to mention that if Gio were the QB on Van's PP, he is
easily
a 40+ pt guy.

I would just like to remind everyone that the Don started a similar comparison last year, attempting to argue that Mitchell was as good of a shut-down guy as Rerehr, Bieksa was better than Phaneuf (I think it was), on down the line, and the Nucks had way more depth than the Flames.  We all saw how right he was last year (/sarcasm), but what the hell, let's try it again this year.

LOL, show me where I said that about Bieksa and Phaneuf.

And as for my Bouwmeester vs. Hamhuis comparison, they are both the all situation guys. Hamhuis more than Ehrhoff will be relied on in defensive situations and penalty kill, and is currently playing on the top defensive pairing for the Canucks.

Maybe Ehrhoff is the better comparison. But I don't think it would change the results much.

Bouwmeester vs. Ehrhoff - Push for now, if Bouwmeester struggles edge goes to Ehrhoff.

Regehr vs, Hamhuis - Hamhuis has the edge.

White vs. Ballard - Edge goes to White

Giordano vs. Edler - Edler still with the edge.

Canucks still win 3 out of 4 top 4 matchups.

Bouwmeester vs. Ehrhoff - Push for now, if Bouwmeester struggles, the edge definitely goes to Ehrhoff.

Regehr vs, Hamhuis - Regehr has the edge, has more consistency.

White vs. Ballard - Edge goes to White

Giordano vs. Edler - Giordano is arguably the best defenseman on either roster.

Flames win 3 of the 4 pairings.

  

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[quote name='C_worthy wrote:


The_Don wrote:

C_worthy']Not to mention that if Gio were the QB on Van's PP, he is
easily
a 40+ pt guy.

I would just like to remind everyone that the Don started a similar comparison last year, attempting to argue that Mitchell was as good of a shut-down guy as Rerehr, Bieksa was better than Phaneuf (I think it was), on down the line, and the Nucks had way more depth than the Flames.  We all saw how right he was last year (/sarcasm), but what the hell, let's try it again this year.

LOL, show me where I said that about Bieksa and Phaneuf.

And as for my Bouwmeester vs. Hamhuis comparison, they are both the all situation guys. Hamhuis more than Ehrhoff will be relied on in defensive situations and penalty kill, and is currently playing on the top defensive pairing for the Canucks.

Maybe Ehrhoff is the better comparison. But I don't think it would change the results much.

Bouwmeester vs. Ehrhoff - Push for now, if Bouwmeester struggles edge goes to Ehrhoff.

Regehr vs, Hamhuis - Hamhuis has the edge.

White vs. Ballard - Edge goes to White

Giordano vs. Edler - Edler still with the edge.

Canucks still win 3 out of 4 top 4 matchups.

Bouwmeester vs. Ehrhoff - Push for now, if Bouwmeester struggles, the edge definitely goes to Ehrhoff.

Regehr vs, Hamhuis - Regehr has the edge, has more consistency.

White vs. Ballard - Edge goes to White

Giordano vs. Edler - Giordano is arguably the best defenseman on either roster.

Flames win 3 of the 4 pairings.

  I will show some respect for your opinion here and not laugh, but I greatly disagree with that.

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Feel free to offer up an argument to the contrary. 

I stand by the statement because Gio has a complete game and does everything really well  - joins the rush, can QB the PP and actually hits the net (cough*phaneuf*cough), excellent positionally in his own end, plays the body, occasionally creams people, excellent first pass coming out of the d-zone... you get the idea

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The Nucks are an offensive team. Calgary despite a terrible season last year still finished 5th overall in fewest GA. Hence a top 5 D team. Whether you want to credit the D or Kipper.

The Nucks did improve their D last off-season, no argument from me but they are not a top 5 D team. Overall it is hard to make that case although darn it, you got to give Don his kudos for trying.

They are right now. wink.gif

Vancouver's D stats were ranked low last yr thanks to a poor 18th ranked PK.... Their Achilles Heel last yr.
This yr should see a significant turnaround in that category...
Already are actually as the PK with Malhotra (and his sick FO ability) and Hamhius has definitely boosted my confidence in watching the PK work... 
Luongo's slightly refined style of playing a bit deeper in his net so he can move more efficiently laterally has also been best showcased on the PK... (see PK video posted above or on the previous page).

just a measly 5 gms in and the Canucks D sits 4th in the league in GAA. And 10th in PK%. 
A very good start from finishing last yr 12th and 18th respectively.

Calgary's start just 4 gms in : 15th in GAA, and 11th on the PK. Last yr they were 5th and 15th respectively. (so obviously you are only using GA as the sole marker for top 5 D status... )

We'll get a better picture after a 10 game sample... but all signs point to a much more effective D corps in Vancouver this yr... and yes... possibly top 5 D.  but... its a long season, so we'll see how the roller coaster plays out...

And please let me say preemptively, I am NOT making any conclusions based on just 5 games... i'm observing an establishment of a possible trend of how the season may go in one particular area... so no panty bunching please.

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[quote name='TheAce wrote:


Flyerfan52']I won't break it down player by player but if I had to trade the entire Flyers D for that of either the Flames or Canucks I'd take the Flames corps.

It's the sum of the parts, not individual pieces.

I do think Don has over-rated Alberts & Parent. I've watched both play in Philly & both make a habit of falling short of expectations. They're 7th D @ best.

I think he has Alberts and Parent as 6th/7th D-men so I dont think he has over-rated them.... he just claims they are better than Staios and Pardy right now.

Im curious though as to your choice of the Flames D core over the Canucks D core....  can you explain more why you'd make that decision ?

I never put as much stock in JBo as most but I'd say the same about Hamhuis, Ballard, Salo & Bieska. I figure the 'Nucks lost D over last year when Mitchell was subtracted. I considered him better then any of their additions.

That leaves Elder & Ehrhoff (decent but not great) vs. Regehr, Sarich, White & Gio.

It's partially personal preference but I like crease clearing D. I want guys that you have to go through to get to the net. I want prevented goals more then points from my defense. If it leads to a take-away & they get an assist, even better.

The forwards get paid to score. D should prevent & make life easier for the 'keeper.

But then I'm 1 of the throwbacks that enjoys 1-0 or 2-1 games & likes a good defensive play as much as a rush.

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[quote name='Flyerfan52 wrote:


TheAce wrote:

Flyerfan52']I won't break it down player by player but if I had to trade the entire Flyers D for that of either the Flames or Canucks I'd take the Flames corps.

It's the sum of the parts, not individual pieces.

I do think Don has over-rated Alberts & Parent. I've watched both play in Philly & both make a habit of falling short of expectations. They're 7th D @ best.

I think he has Alberts and Parent as 6th/7th D-men so I dont think he has over-rated them.... he just claims they are better than Staios and Pardy right now.

Im curious though as to your choice of the Flames D core over the Canucks D core....  can you explain more why you'd make that decision ?

I never put as much stock in JBo as most but I'd say the same about Hamhuis, Ballard, Salo & Bieska. I figure the 'Nucks lost D over last year when Mitchell was subtracted. I considered him better then any of their additions.

That leaves Elder & Ehrhoff (decent but not great) vs. Regehr, Sarich, White & Gio.

It's partially personal preference but I like crease clearing D. I want guys that you have to go through to get to the net. I want prevented goals more then points from my defense. If it leads to a take-away & they get an assist, even better.

The forwards get paid to score. D should prevent & make life easier for the 'keeper.

But then I'm 1 of the throwbacks that enjoys 1-0 or 2-1 games & likes a good defensive play as much as a rush.

Yeah that would definitely be a philly fan type of expectation to have about the D (and thats not a slight).

On the other hand I would prefer the D that has some slightly lesser capability of crease clearing but can pass, transition and jump start and be the backbone of an offense to help it become elite level.

Anyone seen how aggressive Edler has come out of the gate offensively? 
based on development, age and learning curve... its a no-brainer for me which D i would take....

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[quote name='DL44 wrote:


Flame111']The Nucks are an offensive team. Calgary despite a terrible season last year still finished 5th overall in fewest GA. Hence a top 5 D team. Whether you want to credit the D or Kipper.

The Nucks did improve their D last off-season, no argument from me
but they are not a top 5 D team
. Overall it is hard to make that case although darn it, you got to give Don his kudos for trying.

They are right now. wink.gif

Vancouver's D stats were ranked low last yr thanks to a poor 18th ranked PK.... Their Achilles Heel last yr.
This yr should see a significant turnaround in that category...
Already are actually as the PK with Malhotra (and his sick FO ability) and Hamhius has definitely boosted my confidence in watching the PK work... 
Luongo's slightly refined style of playing a bit deeper in his net so he can move more efficiently laterally has also been best showcased on the PK... (see PK video posted above or on the previous page).

just a measly 5 gms in and the Canucks D sits 4th in the league in GAA. And 10th in PK%. 
A very good start from finishing last yr 12th and 18th respectively.

Calgary's start just 4 gms in : 15th in GAA, and 11th on the PK. Last yr they were 5th and 15th respectively. (so obviously you are only using GA as the sole marker for top 5 D status... )

We'll get a better picture after a 10 game sample... but all signs point to a much more effective D corps in Vancouver this yr... and yes... possibly top 5 D.  but... its a long season, so we'll see how the roller coaster plays out...

And please let me say preemptively, I am NOT making any conclusions based on just 5 games... i'm observing an establishment of a possible trend of how the season may go in one particular area... so no panty bunching please.
Obviously, GAA is the primary stat with respect to this discussion.  I'm not so sure about PK though.  I'll throw out another - SA/G.

Last year the Flames finshed 7th after a horrendous first 10 games or so (where they were 29th if I recall) and the Nucks were 11th.  This 

correlates quite strongly with the GAA of 5th and 12th respectively.

This year the Flames are 4th and the Nucks are 18th.  I would expect that if the Flames can continue to keep the SA down, the GAA will soon be more reflective of how they are playing.  I know this will be contriversial, but I actually think Kipper has been meh so far this year.  He had one or two softies in the first game, at least one against Florida, and was down right brutal on the Hemsky goal last game - not to mention there was a goal off White's face.  (So I fully expect to see the GAA improve, not the opposite and have the SA go the other way).

  

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Feel free to offer up an argument to the contrary. 

I stand by the statement because Gio has a complete game and does everything really well  - joins the rush, can QB the PP and actually hits the net (cough*phaneuf*cough), excellent positionally in his own end, plays the body, occasionally creams people, excellent first pass coming out of the d-zone... you get the idea

Yes, and Edler does all that while having 37 and 42 point seasons as a 23 and 24 year old. He finished 20th in defenceman scoring last year while Giordano was 47th with 30 points.

And Edler's physicality is just now catching up to the rest of his game and his body. By season's end, he will be the Canucks best defenceman and looked at as one of the best in the league.

I'd be willing to throw a bet out right now that he gets more Norris votes than any Flame.

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[quote name='Flyerfan52 wrote:


TheAce wrote:

Flyerfan52']I won't break it down player by player but if I had to trade the entire Flyers D for that of either the Flames or Canucks I'd take the Flames corps.

It's the sum of the parts, not individual pieces.

I do think Don has over-rated Alberts & Parent. I've watched both play in Philly & both make a habit of falling short of expectations. They're 7th D @ best.

I think he has Alberts and Parent as 6th/7th D-men so I dont think he has over-rated them.... he just claims they are better than Staios and Pardy right now.

Im curious though as to your choice of the Flames D core over the Canucks D core....  can you explain more why you'd make that decision ?

I never put as much stock in JBo as most but I'd say the same about Hamhuis, Ballard, Salo & Bieska. I figure the 'Nucks lost D over last year when Mitchell was subtracted. I considered him better then any of their additions.

That leaves Elder & Ehrhoff (decent but not great) vs. Regehr, Sarich, White & Gio.

It's partially personal preference but I like crease clearing D. I want guys that you have to go through to get to the net. I want prevented goals more then points from my defense. If it leads to a take-away & they get an assist, even better.

The forwards get paid to score. D should prevent & make life easier for the 'keeper.

But then I'm 1 of the throwbacks that enjoys 1-0 or 2-1 games & likes a good defensive play as much as a rush.Makes sense since that is your personal preference to the style you enjoy.......  Although I think to be successful in the new NHL you need to have players who can play both ends and not just limited to a defensive style.  Giordano fits the mold of a good 2 way D-man who can hold his own on both ends. I think Calgary lacked more of that and it led them to having there scoring problems. 

Hamhuis and Ballard are a bit over hyped but I feel they fit that mold of a good 2-way player. They are solid in there own end but can also lead a rush and make offensive plays. Given the choice between those 2 or Regehr/Sarich id prefer the ones who can play both ends. 

Ehrhoff/Edler may not be great but id say they a better than decent.  They led the canucks in ice time and could hold there own against top lines. Both scored 40+ points and were in the top 20 for league leaders.

Salo plays a very similar game to Timonen.... not the best in any one thing but solid and rarely gets beat. Salo's knock are his injuries. Keep in mind though, Salo and Bieksa would be the 5th/6th D-man on this team if health wasnt the issue.  I dont think many teams can boast a 5th/6th better than those 2

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Obviously, GAA is the primary stat with respect to this discussion.  I'm not so sure about PK though.  I'll throw out another - SA/G.

Last year the Flames finshed 7th after a horrendous first 10 games or so (where they were 29th if I recall) and the Nucks were 11th.  This 

correlates quite strongly with the GAA of 5th and 12th respectively.

This year the Flames are 4th and the Nucks are 18th.  I would expect that if the Flames can continue to keep the SA down, the GAA will soon be more reflective of how they are playing.  I know this will be contriversial, but I actually think Kipper has been meh so far this year.  He had one or two softies in the first game, at least one against Florida, and was down right brutal on the Hemsky goal last game - not to mention there was a goal off White's face.  (So I fully expect to see the GAA improve, not the opposite and have the SA go the other way).

I find SoG to be quite misleading overall...
Take the last Van-Car game as a prime example.  SoG doesn't take into account at all shot quality.
Also teams pressing to get back into the game, or tie late usually pile up shot totals as teams generally sit back and protect.
And also tied pretty good to PPs.

I think as you go thru the stats of individual games (something easy to do on ESPN's team schedule page) at least with van last yr if i recall... the games in which they got outshot were common for games they won...

Well on a quick look... the last 4 games for the canucks this yr.... the 2 wins, they were outshot... the 2 losses, they outshot the winning team.
I've observed this as a the more common trend lately and therefore usually put little less weight on it.  but its also not a throw away stat since it is something i do look at the end of a game.  

GA with SoGA probably gives you a good indication of how a team's goaltending is doing.  If goaltending was all equal... the numbers would correlate.

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If health wasn't an issue, Salo would be a Number 1/2 dman on almost every team in the league. Almost.

- Outstanding IQ - PP Hammer - top pairing PK - great stick - big body that can move people in front of the net

Just not the fastest guy, or outright in your face physical.. and he's getting old...

ok i'll take a step back from that statement because of age...

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If health wasn't an issue, Salo would be a Number 1/2 dman on almost every team in the league. Almost.

- Outstanding IQ - PP Hammer - top pairing PK - great stick - big body that can move people in front of the net

Just not the fastest guy, or outright in your face physical.. and he's getting old...

ok i'll take a step back from that statement because of age...
Yeah, im a huge Salo fan.... it really is too bad about his injuries because he is such a good D-man.  I think of all the D-men that Vancouver has had over the years ( Jovo, Ohlund etc ) Salo was probably the all- round best.

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[quote name='TheAce wrote:


DL44']If health wasn't an issue, Salo would be a Number 1/2 dman on almost every team in the league. Almost.

- Outstanding IQ - PP Hammer - top pairing PK - great stick - big body that can move people in front of the net

Just not the fastest guy, or outright in your face physical.. and he's getting old...

ok i'll take a step back from that statement because of age...

Yeah, im a huge Salo fan.... it really is too bad about his injuries because he is such a good D-man.  I think of all the D-men that Vancouver has had over the years ( Jovo, Ohlund etc ) Salo was probably the all- round best.

I always liked Salo too, but he was never as good as Ohlund.

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


TheAce wrote:

DL44']If health wasn't an issue, Salo would be a Number 1/2 dman on almost every team in the league. Almost.

- Outstanding IQ - PP Hammer - top pairing PK - great stick - big body that can move people in front of the net

Just not the fastest guy, or outright in your face physical.. and he's getting old...

ok i'll take a step back from that statement because of age...

Yeah, im a huge Salo fan.... it really is too bad about his injuries because he is such a good D-man.  I think of all the D-men that Vancouver has had over the years ( Jovo, Ohlund etc ) Salo was probably the all- round best.

I always liked Salo too, but he was never as good as Ohlund.

Which is no big deal since a prime Ohlund was pretty awesome...

less of a hammer on the point, but Ohlund jumping back door on the PP was always a thing of beauty.

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