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Discussion & Debate Thread: Flames and Canucks

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[quote name='DL44 wrote:


Flyerfan52 wrote:

TheAce']I think he has Alberts and Parent as 6th/7th D-men so I dont think he has over-rated them.... he just claims they are better than Staios and Pardy right now.

Im curious though as to your choice of the Flames D core over the Canucks D core....  can you explain more why you'd make that decision ?

I never put as much stock in JBo as most but I'd say the same about Hamhuis, Ballard, Salo & Bieska. I figure the 'Nucks lost D over last year when Mitchell was subtracted. I considered him better then any of their additions.

That leaves Elder & Ehrhoff (decent but not great) vs. Regehr, Sarich, White & Gio.

It's partially personal preference but I like crease clearing D. I want guys that you have to go through to get to the net. I want prevented goals more then points from my defense. If it leads to a take-away & they get an assist, even better.

The forwards get paid to score. D should prevent & make life easier for the 'keeper.

But then I'm 1 of the throwbacks that enjoys 1-0 or 2-1 games & likes a good defensive play as much as a rush.

Yeah that would definitely be a philly fan type of expectation to have about the D (and thats not a slight).

On the other hand I would prefer the D that has some slightly lesser capability of crease clearing but can pass, transition and jump start and be the backbone of an offense to help it become elite level.

Anyone seen how aggressive Edler has come out of the gate offensively? 
based on development, age and learning curve... its a no-brainer for me which D i would take....

I didn't take your post as a slight. Actually, quite a few on the Flyers board would agree with your take.

Like I said, it's a preference. I'd sooner have a Pronger or Weber then Mike Green. Steak over sizzle.

But then I also like my forwards to play both ways. That's why I like Kesler from your crew.

I don't like the trap but in my mind the whole team plays to limit SA. On a team like the Flyers that often leads to opportunities for shorties.

Soldiers like Laperriere that leave everything on the ice are the 1s I respect. Others may be more exciting to most viewers but these are the types that will get you a win.

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[quote name='DL44 wrote:


The_Don wrote:

TheAce']Yeah, im a huge Salo fan.... it really is too bad about his injuries because he is such a good D-man.  I think of all the D-men that Vancouver has had over the years ( Jovo, Ohlund etc ) Salo was probably the all- round best.

I always liked Salo too, but he was never as good as Ohlund.

Which is no big deal since a prime Ohlund was pretty awesome...

less of a hammer on the point, but Ohlund jumping back door on the PP was always a thing of beauty.
And then there was Jovo....

The Canucks have never had the privilege of having a defenceman you could call "great", however we have had a lot of very good ones in the last 10-15 years.

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


DL44 wrote:

The_Don']I always liked Salo too, but he was never as good as Ohlund.

Which is no big deal since a prime Ohlund was pretty awesome...
less of a hammer on the point, but Ohlund jumping back door on the PP was always a thing of beauty.
And then there was Jovo....

The Canucks have never had the privilege of having a defenceman you could call "great", however we have had a lot of very good ones in the last 10-15 years.

   I agree.  Just a little short on having an elite man.

Jovo was a great mix of pure aggression, emotion/passion, mobility and offense.... decent defensively, but was prone to his lapses which kept him a tier short of the elite Norris finalists....  

Altho watching him with the Yotes, his game has definitely matured over the yrs... a lot more reliable...

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[quote name='DL44 wrote:


The_Don wrote:

DL44']

Which is no big deal since a prime Ohlund was pretty awesome...
less of a hammer on the point, but Ohlund jumping back door on the PP was always a thing of beauty.

And then there was Jovo....

The Canucks have never had the privilege of having a defenceman you could call "great", however we have had a lot of very good ones in the last 10-15 years.

   I agree.  Just a little short on having an elite man.

Jovo was a great mix of pure aggression, emotion/passion, mobility and offense.... decent defensively, but was prone to his lapses which kept him a tier short of the elite Norris finalists....  

Altho watching him with the Yotes, his game has definitely matured over the yrs... a lot more reliable...Like a lot of defencemen that get to that age, realize what made their careers they just can't do anymore, so they have to adapt.

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[quote name='DL44 wrote:


C_worthy']

Obviously, GAA is the primary stat with respect to this discussion.  I'm not so sure about PK though.  I'll throw out another - SA/G.

Last year the Flames finshed 7th after a horrendous first 10 games or so (where they were 29th if I recall) and the Nucks were 11th.  This 

correlates quite strongly with the GAA of 5th and 12th respectively.

This year the Flames are 4th and the Nucks are 18th.  I would expect that if the Flames can continue to keep the SA down, the GAA will soon be more reflective of how they are playing.  I know this will be contriversial, but I actually think Kipper has been meh so far this year.  He had one or two softies in the first game, at least one against Florida, and was down right brutal on the Hemsky goal last game - not to mention there was a goal off White's face.  (So I fully expect to see the GAA improve, not the opposite and have the SA go the other way).

I find SoG to be quite misleading overall...

Take the last Van-Car game as a prime example.  SoG doesn't take into account at all shot quality.
Also teams pressing to get back into the game, or tie late usually pile up shot totals as teams generally sit back and protect.
And also tied pretty good to PPs.

I think as you go thru the stats of individual games (something easy to do on ESPN's team schedule page) at least with van last yr if i recall... the games in which they got outshot were common for games they won...

Well on a quick look... the last 4 games for the canucks this yr.... the 2 wins, they were outshot... the 2 losses, they outshot the winning team.
I've observed this as a the more common trend lately and therefore usually put little less weight on it.  but its also not a throw away stat since it is something i do look at the end of a game.  

GA with SoGA probably gives you a good indication of how a team's goaltending is doing.  If goaltending was all equal... the numbers would correlate.

I think shots on goal is a perfect example of how stats work - how small sample sizes can be very misleading, but given enough data, they will tell a story.

I agree that often - maybe even most nights - shots don't reflect the game.  And, as you demonstrated, my complaint with shots on goal is that, so often, the team behind outshoots the leading team by a wide margin in the third period, thus polluting the shots as a viable stat (in that game - the very definition of a small sample size).  However, by years' end, virtually every team has a team goalie save percentage between 910 and 920.  In other words, total goals become very much a function of total shots.  And thus, the correlation between total shots and total goals against is very high.  Obviously, there is a goalie factor that will have an impact on this, and there is also a style of play issue, etc, but the correlation is what it is.

Which brings us back to the small sample size of only 4 and 5 games for the respective teams.  However, I would add that the Flames also had very low shots against in the pre-season as well (the primary reason for the 7-0 record IMO).  Based on the 4 games so far, plus the pre-season, I believe (hope?) that the shots against will remain low and that will directly lead to a low GAA again this year.

  

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And then there was Jovo....

The Canucks have never had the privilege of having a defenceman you could call "great", however we have had a lot of very good ones in the last 10-15 years.

I think, at his peak, Jovo was definitely great - at least for a couple years, he was Pronger-esque.  Hated him - completely %$^%ing hated him, but for a while there, it is fair to say that he was one of the premier defensemen in the league.

And what about Harold Shnepps? (I can't remember the spelling, sorry) During the 1982 cup-run, he was god-like! wink.gif

    

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


C_worthy']Feel free to offer up an argument to the contrary. 

I stand by the statement because Gio has a complete game and does everything
really
well  - joins the rush, can QB the PP and actually hits the net (cough*phaneuf*cough), excellent positionally in his own end, plays the body, occasionally creams people, excellent first pass coming out of the d-zone... you get the idea

Yes, and Edler does all that while having 37 and 42 point seasons as a 23 and 24 year old. He finished 20th in defenceman scoring last year while Giordano was 47th with 30 points.

And Edler's physicality is just now catching up to the rest of his game and his body. By season's end, he will be the Canucks best defenceman and looked at as one of the best in the league.

I'd be willing to throw a bet out right now that he gets more Norris votes than any Flame.

Edler has not, as of yet, shown a physical game anywhere near where Gio's game is.

And as I said before, if Gio were playing on the PP with the sisters last year, I believe he would have easily had over 40 pts. 

As for Norris votes, unfortunately (IMO) it is heavily influenced by pts.  So, unless the Flames improve their goal scoring substantially, there won't be many Norris votes cast their way.  (Just saying that shows how stupid the Norris voting is).

  

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[quote name='C_worthy wrote:


The_Don']And then there was Jovo....

The Canucks have never had the privilege of having a defenceman you could call "great", however we have had a lot of very good ones in the last 10-15 years.

I think, at his peak, Jovo was definitely great - at least for a couple years, he was Pronger-esque.  Hated him - completely %$^%ing hated him, but for a while there, it is fair to say that he was one of the premier defensemen in the league.

And what about Harold Shnepps? (I can't remember the spelling, sorry) During the 1982 cup-run, he was god-like! wink.gif

    It's Snepsts, but close. tongue.gif

Yes, we've had a few guys that have at times been great. Lumme would be another one. But I'm talking more about their entire bodies or work, not just when they showed flashes. None of our defenceman (as of right now) will be considered for the HoF or even close, and I don't think any will have their numbers retired (Ohlund being the first if any do, but I don't see it).

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[quote name='C_worthy wrote:


The_Don wrote:

C_worthy']Feel free to offer up an argument to the contrary. 

I stand by the statement because Gio has a complete game and does everything
really
well  - joins the rush, can QB the PP and actually hits the net (cough*phaneuf*cough), excellent positionally in his own end, plays the body, occasionally creams people, excellent first pass coming out of the d-zone... you get the idea

Yes, and Edler does all that while having 37 and 42 point seasons as a 23 and 24 year old. He finished 20th in defenceman scoring last year while Giordano was 47th with 30 points.

And Edler's physicality is just now catching up to the rest of his game and his body. By season's end, he will be the Canucks best defenceman and looked at as one of the best in the league.

I'd be willing to throw a bet out right now that he gets more Norris votes than any Flame.

Edler has not, as of yet, shown a physical game anywhere near where Gio's game is.

And as I said before, if Gio were playing on the PP with the sisters last year, I believe he would have easily had over 40 pts. 

As for Norris votes, unfortunately (IMO) it is heavily influenced by pts.  So, unless the Flames improve their goal scoring substantially, there won't be many Norris votes cast their way.  (Just saying that shows how stupid the Norris voting is).

  He hasn't on a consistent basis, no. But at started down the stretch last year and into the playoffs, and he has picked up where he left off so far this season. Like I said, his physicality is just now catching up with him. Give him a couple years and we'll see what kind of physical force he can be.

So, are you sayign the only reason Edler got to 40+ points is because he played on the PP with the Sedins? Because he actually played on the 2nd unit alot, with Bieksa getting top unit time as well as Salo with Ehrhoff. And if you think they are even points wise off the PP, Edler stills outscores him 23 to 16.

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Canucks melting down vs Minny? Rypien attacking some guy in the stands and Lou getting shelled. Looks like the bag skate had positive results? Or Van is just not showing up tonight, I've just seen the highlights.

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What the heck, we talk about the Flames being inconsistent.

6-1 before the 2nd was half over, how is that even possible against a team like the Nucks this year.

WOW - all I got to say is you better promote that Schnieder kid up to 1st string, he looked very good against the Canes and eat that 10 million from 7uongo. Luo could be the next Huet - laugh.gif

Care to summarize what the heck happened here Nuck fans, I was watching the Flames game so did not see what happened. I guess there is a third period left but Backstrom is a "real" elite goalie in the NHL happy.gif- I would put a lot of money on the fact that he will not let in 5 goals in one period...

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What the heck, we talk about the Flames being inconsistent.

6-1 before the 2nd was half over, how is that even possible against a team like the Nucks this year.

WOW - all I got to say is you better promote that Schnieder kid up to 1st string, he looked very good against the Canes and eat that 10 million from 7uongo. Luo could be the next Huet - laugh.gif

Care to summarize what the heck happened here Nuck fans, I was watching the Flames game so did not see what happened. I guess there is a third period left but Backstrom is a "real" elite goalie in the NHL happy.gif- I would put a lot of money on the fact that he will not let in 5 goals in one period...
A bad game all together. They came out of the gates quick and scored a beauty really early. I think they thought right there that because the first one was so easy, they could just cruise to another win. But a couple quick ones the other way and it's too late to try to bring it back. The game was lost at that point. The defensive coverage is horrendous. Worst I've seen all year by far. Luongo hasn't looked strong either, but not getting much help. Powerplay looks unorganized and penalty killing is always scrambling. Parent has had a rough debut.

Long story short, it's just one of those days.

Positive note, we play again right away tomorrow night. No matter who is in net it should be a goal they should have no problem getting up for and a team they won't take lightly.

As for the Rypien incident, it was just a stupid moment by a guy who should know better. Clearly he's frustrated, understandable, but you gotta keep you head a little better. The wierd part was he was ties up with the linesman in front of the Canucks bench, and the Canucks players as well as AV seemed like they were trying to pry them apart. The Ryp proceeds down the tunnel to meet an obnoxious fan that he wasn't going to take any abuse from.

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[quote name='Kristian_Huselius wrote:


The_Don']And KH comes in a ruins another stretch of positive hockey debate. Well done.

Thanks for BMo also. He is pretty crappy but we like him for being on pace for 80+ points.

I'm glad your happy that a player that wasn't good enough to make our team is your team's best player.

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


Kristian_Huselius wrote:

The_Don']And KH comes in a ruins another stretch of positive hockey debate. Well done.

Thanks for BMo also. He is pretty crappy but we like him for being on pace for 80+ points.

I'm glad your happy that a player that wasn't good enough to make our team is your team's best player.

Since you guys are losing 6-1, I'm not so sure about that right now.

  

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[quote name='The_Don wrote:


Flame111']What the heck, we talk about the Flames being inconsistent.

6-1 before the 2nd was half over, how is that even possible against a team like the Nucks this year.

WOW - all I got to say is you better promote that Schnieder kid up to 1st string, he looked very good against the Canes and eat that 10 million from 7uongo. Luo could be the next Huet - 
laugh.gif

Care to summarize what the heck happened here Nuck fans, I was watching the Flames game so did not see what happened. I guess there is a third period left but Backstrom is a "real" elite goalie in the NHL
happy.gif
- I would put a lot of money on the fact that he will not let in 5 goals in one period...

A bad game all together. They came out of the gates quick and scored a beauty really early. I think they thought right there that because the first one was so easy, they could just cruise to another win. But a couple quick ones the other way and it's too late to try to bring it back. The game was lost at that point. The defensive coverage is horrendous. Worst I've seen all year by far. Luongo hasn't looked strong either, but not getting much help. Powerplay looks unorganized and penalty killing is always scrambling. Parent has had a rough debut.

Long story short, it's just one of those days.

Positive note, we play again right away tomorrow night. No matter who is in net it should be a goal they should have no problem getting up for and a team they won't take lightly.

As for the Rypien incident, it was just a stupid moment by a guy who should know better. Clearly he's frustrated, understandable, but you gotta keep you head a little better. The wierd part was he was ties up with the linesman in front of the Canucks bench, and the Canucks players as well as AV seemed like they were trying to pry them apart. The Ryp proceeds down the tunnel to meet an obnoxious fan that he wasn't going to take any abuse from.

So Rypien was roughing it up with the ref first? If so, he can say bye bye for awhile. That fan incident alone should get him 10+ games.

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[quote name='bigchief wrote:


The_Don wrote:

Flame111']What the heck, we talk about the Flames being inconsistent.

6-1 before the 2nd was half over, how is that even possible against a team like the Nucks this year.

WOW - all I got to say is you better promote that Schnieder kid up to 1st string, he looked very good against the Canes and eat that 10 million from 7uongo. Luo could be the next Huet - 
laugh.gif

Care to summarize what the heck happened here Nuck fans, I was watching the Flames game so did not see what happened. I guess there is a third period left but Backstrom is a "real" elite goalie in the NHL
happy.gif
- I would put a lot of money on the fact that he will not let in 5 goals in one period...

A bad game all together. They came out of the gates quick and scored a beauty really early. I think they thought right there that because the first one was so easy, they could just cruise to another win. But a couple quick ones the other way and it's too late to try to bring it back. The game was lost at that point. The defensive coverage is horrendous. Worst I've seen all year by far. Luongo hasn't looked strong either, but not getting much help. Powerplay looks unorganized and penalty killing is always scrambling. Parent has had a rough debut.

Long story short,
it's just one of those days
.

Positive note, we play again right away tomorrow night. No matter who is in net it should be a goal they should have no problem getting up for and a team they won't take lightly.

As for the Rypien incident, it was just a stupid moment by a guy who should know better. Clearly he's frustrated, understandable, but you gotta keep you head a little better. The wierd part was he was ties up with the linesman in front of the Canucks bench, and the Canucks players as well as AV seemed like they were trying to pry them apart. The Ryp proceeds down the tunnel to meet an obnoxious fan that he wasn't going to take any abuse from.

So Rypien was roughing it up with the ref first? If so, he can say bye bye for awhile. That fan incident alone should get him 10+ games.

Not really, no. He wasn't doing anything. It looked like the linesman was trying to hold onto him while he was trying to get away down the tunnel. I guess he couldn't wait to get at the fan. tongue.gif

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Lone bright spot, the Sedins. Daniel with 2 more goals, Henrik with 2 more assists.

Daniel has 24 goals in his last 28 games including playoffs.

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I thought it was funny because the guy has zero control on his emotions. He'll be suspended for sure.

Now I have no idea why the fan was kicked out, he didn't throw anything he just probably yelled which is allowed... that's dumb and I wouldn't have left if I were him. He probably paid 100+bucks to be THAT close, yet he's kicked out because of an idiot.

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