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Discussion & Debate Thread: Flames and Canucks

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How is it a copout? I think it's more common sense than anything.

You're a defenseman, who do you want to be playing for if you're looking for points? A team that boasts these forwards....

D.Sedin, H.Sedin, Burrows, Kesler, Raymond, Samuelsson....

Or

Iginla, Tanguay, Stajan, Bourque, Hagman, Morrison

I don't think anyone could argue that Vancouver boasts a much more potent offense, especially with Iginla really on the decline. As a defenseman you're going to have a much better opportunity to get points with super skilled guys in there to put the puck in the net off your shot/papple, or get the puck back to the point for you.

Saying that the only reason Edler would have better numbers is because he plays on a better team is a bit of a cop out. You know that he is a part of the reason why the team is so good offensively, he isn't just an innocent tag-along.

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So the Nucks have hit the 20 game pole and the Flames will tomorrow. A couple interesting observations...

Only 3 Nucks are currently 'plus' players.

BMo would currently rank 3rd in scoring on the Nucks (he's currently 4th on the Flames) and would be leading the Nucks in +-. B) As Ace said: one man's garbage...

JBo leads both teams with a +7.

The Flames are scoring goals at a faster pace than the Nucks while the Nucks are giving up fewer.

If the Flames can get a win in NY (game 20), they will be sitting with 9 wins to Van's 10.

As bad as the Flames have been, things haven't been a whole lot better in Lotusland.

To no one's surprise, the West is even tighter this year, with 11 teams at least 3 games above 500. And the Hawks have the 12th best winning percentage, sitting only one game over 500.

The NW is the only division in the West with any teams under 500.

It is very possible that there could be 14 teams at or above 500 this year. And I believe it will take at least 97 pts to make the playoffs.

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So the Nucks have hit the 20 game pole and the Flames will tomorrow. A couple interesting observations...

Only 3 Nucks are currently 'plus' players.

BMo would currently rank 3rd in scoring on the Nucks (he's currently 4th on the Flames) and would be leading the Nucks in +-. B) As Ace said: one man's garbage...

JBo leads both teams with a +7.

The Flames are scoring goals at a faster pace than the Nucks while the Nucks are giving up fewer.

If the Flames can get a win in NY (game 20), they will be sitting with 9 wins to Van's 10.

As bad as the Flames have been, things haven't been a whole lot better in Lotusland.

To no one's surprise, the West is even tighter this year, with 11 teams at least 3 games above 500. And the Hawks have the 12th best winning percentage, sitting only one game over 500.

The NW is the only division in the West with any teams under 500.

It is very possible that there could be 14 teams at or above 500 this year. And I believe it will take at least 97 pts to make the playoffs.

Again, you are misusing the term .500.

The Canucks are at exactly .500 (10 wins out of 20 games)

The Flames, Wild and Oilers are all below .500.

Though even if the Flames win, 9-10-1 as a lot different than 10-7-3. It's more than just one win. Like it or not in the NHL today OT losses make a big difference, and Calgary just hasn't been able to take enough close games to OT, tonight being the first one.

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Again, you are misusing the term .500.

The Canucks are at exactly .500 (10 wins out of 20 games)

The Flames, Wild and Oilers are all below .500.

Though even if the Flames win, 9-10-1 as a lot different than 10-7-3. It's more than just one win. Like it or not in the NHL today OT losses make a big difference, and Calgary just hasn't been able to take enough close games to OT, tonight being the first one.

First you make the argument that an OT point still isn't playing 500 (i.e. it's a loss). Then you try and make the argument that the Flames aren't doing well enough because they aren't getting enough games into OT (i.e. getting the tie point). Which is it?

I am only "mis-using the term .500" by your own personal definition. I am in agreement with DL on this issue: that it is not a loser point, it is a bonus point for winning. A tie after 60 minutes was always a point, the only difference now is that there is an opportunity for an additional point.

So perhaps it is not me that is "mis-using" the term, maybe it is you.

It is also interesting that the .500 issue is all that you choose to remark about.

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I enjoy reading this thread. It reminds me of the Pore Riting Skilz thread. It is purely for amusement as nothing of value is on it.

In the end of the season, by which I mean come April, you can make all the comparisons you want. Only then will any of them hold any water.

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First you make the argument that an OT point still isn't playing 500 (i.e. it's a loss). Then you try and make the argument that the Flames aren't doing well enough because they aren't getting enough games into OT (i.e. getting the tie point). Which is it?

I am only "mis-using the term .500" by your own personal definition. I am in agreement with DL on this issue: that it is not a loser point, it is a bonus point for winning. A tie after 60 minutes was always a point, the only difference now is that there is an opportunity for an additional point.

So perhaps it is not me that is "mis-using" the term, maybe it is you.

It is also interesting that the .500 issue is all that you choose to remark about.

It's both. Those are two completely separate statements.

It's not "my" definition, but "the" definition.

The term ".500" refers to your winning percentage. Your winning percentage if the percentage of games that you win. 10 wins divided by 20 games is exactly .500. This is generally accepted across all of sports.

Instead of misusing one stat (winning%) you could just simply use a different stat which would fit what you are saying, and that would be point percentage (or simply how many points your team acquires per game). That would be the stat you are looking for.

And I don't know why I would remark about anything else. I only remarked on what I disagreed with.

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The numbers after 20 games....

Canucks (Flames in brackets)

10 gms: 5-3-2, 12 pts, 2nd in the NW, 9th in the West, 16th overall (6-5, 12 pts, 3rd, 10th, 17th)

20 gms: 10-7-3, 23pts, 2nd in the NW, 8th in the West, 15th Overall (8-11-1, 17pts, 4th, 14th, 27th)

Point %

10 gms: 0.600, 10th (17th)

20 gms: 0.575, 15th (27th)

G/gm

10 gms: 2.70, 18th (13th)

20 gms: 2.90, 13th, (12th)

GA/gm

10 gms: 2.20, 3rd (22nd)

20 gms: 2.70, 13th (23rd)

PP %

10 gms: 21.0%, 9th (25th)

20 gms: 27.0, 1st (19th)

PK %

10 gms: 84.6, 13th (19th)

20 gms: 87.2, 5th (20th)

PP G

10 gms: 8, 10th (19th)

20 gms: 20, 2nd (14th)

PP GA

10 gms: 6, 9th (16th)

20 gms: 10, 5th (20th)

SoG

10 gms: 30.5, 17th (10th)

20 gms: 31.4, 11th (10th)

SoGA

10 gms: 30.7, 18th (9th)

20 gms: 31.4, 20th (12th)

+/-

10 gms: +3, 10th (15th)

20 gms: -6, 21st (18th)

Faceoffs

10 gms: 56.5, 1st (23rd)

20 gms: 56.6, 1st (27th)

Hits

10 gms: 257, 9th (19th)

20 gms: 468, 8th (17th)

Blocked Shots

10 gms: 144, 18th (15th)

20 gms: 281, 17th (22nd)

Giveaways

10 gms: 58, 5th (25th)

20 gms: 137, 7th (17th)

Takeaways

10 gms: 81, 8th (11th)

20 gms: 159, 6th (21st)

Shootout

Van: 0-2

Cal: 1-0

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Luongo with by far his best performance of the season. 32 save shutout of the Hawks and made at least 5 fantastic highlight-reel saves.

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I would love to see how you're beloved Luongo would do in a Flames uniform ;) . As I would like to see what the nucks could do with Kipper in nets... don't even want to think about it. :lol:

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So you guys will give me a minus, but won't argue with me? BOR-ING!

Well we can't very well shove you into the bushes so.....

How serious is the push to fire AV anyway? I was really surprised to hear that a week or so ago. Just a rogue group of "passionate fans" or does it actually have legs?

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Well we can't very well shove you into the bushes so.....

How serious is the push to fire AV anyway? I was really surprised to hear that a week or so ago. Just a rogue group of "passionate fans" or does it actually have legs?

Obviously it depends on who you ask. Some feel AV is one 5-game losing streak or other similar slump away from getting the heave. There seems to be quite a few of these people, but they are nuts. They AV haters are thinking wishfully.

He will finish this season as the Canucks coach. I can almost guarantee it. Anything short of the Canucks going on a significant slide that saw them well out of a playoff spot and there were several reports of unrest within the lockerroom would have AV finish the season. What he will be very closely judged on is this teams playoff success. Those of us that are sane realize that. If we fail to advance to the Conference finals this year, there is a good chance AV will be gone. Obviously there are many factors, such as how we lose and not just when, but I think that getting past round 2 will be huge for AV's job security.

I am no Vigneault fanboy, but I do understand that he gives us our best shot over the available coaches that would replace him mid-season. This is the part I don't understand about the haters that call for his head after every loss (or even wins by less than 3 goals, just like last night). Who would they like to replace him? Pat Quinn? Mike Keenan? There isn't a coach available right now that I would feel comfortable behind the Canucks bench.

The other factor is Mike Gillis. Those that follow the Canucks closely know his way of doing things. He does not make knee-jerk reactions and he does not give in to outside pressures. He will be patient and dilligent when it comes time to make a coaching change. To be honest, the best time for the Canucks to make a coaching change would have been this past off-season, when Scott Arniel was ready to step up from the AHL ranks into an NHL position. I would have been fine with that change being made. He would be already familiar with many Canucks players and the system and approach the organization takes. When that move was not made, I knew AV would be sticking out the year, good or bad.

I can't help but laugh at some of the arguments against AV from the haters on CDC. There are 3 main ones.

1. His success is a result of his players, he is just along for the ride. That's funny, because before he got to Vancouver the Sedin's weren't even PPG players, it was believed Kesler wasn't going to be anything more than a 3rd line checker, and Burrows was still shuttling between Manitoba and Vancouver as a 4th line energy player. He has helped those players blossom.

2. He shows no emotion on the bench. They often refer to how he likes to chew gum so much like it's a bad thing. I mean, who would you like behind the bench when things are getting heated? The guy who is going to keep everyone calm or the guy who is screaming and yelling? The players are going to follow each example the coach sets, but which one is going to result in more success?

3. He sits on the lead in the third period. Go look at the Canucks record when leading after 2 periods in the last 3 years. I think they have 4 losses total.

Haha.... that kind of turned into a little rant, didn't it.

Long story short. He has proved he is a good coach. He has probably only this year to prove he is a great coach that can get his team over the playoff hump and to glory.

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I'd love to see it happen mid-season for obvious reasons, kind of surprised to see so many Canucks fans wishing for the same thing though.

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Obviously it depends on who you ask. Some feel AV is one 5-game losing streak or other similar slump away from getting the heave. There seems to be quite a few of these people, but they are nuts. They AV haters are thinking wishfully.

He will finish this season as the Canucks coach. I can almost guarantee it. Anything short of the Canucks going on a significant slide that saw them well out of a playoff spot and there were several reports of unrest within the lockerroom would have AV finish the season. What he will be very closely judged on is this teams playoff success. Those of us that are sane realize that. If we fail to advance to the Conference finals this year, there is a good chance AV will be gone. Obviously there are many factors, such as how we lose and not just when, but I think that getting past round 2 will be huge for AV's job security.

I am no Vigneault fanboy, but I do understand that he gives us our best shot over the available coaches that would replace him mid-season. This is the part I don't understand about the haters that call for his head after every loss (or even wins by less than 3 goals, just like last night). Who would they like to replace him? Pat Quinn? Mike Keenan? There isn't a coach available right now that I would feel comfortable behind the Canucks bench.

The other factor is Mike Gillis. Those that follow the Canucks closely know his way of doing things. He does not make knee-jerk reactions and he does not give in to outside pressures. He will be patient and dilligent when it comes time to make a coaching change. To be honest, the best time for the Canucks to make a coaching change would have been this past off-season, when Scott Arniel was ready to step up from the AHL ranks into an NHL position. I would have been fine with that change being made. He would be already familiar with many Canucks players and the system and approach the organization takes. When that move was not made, I knew AV would be sticking out the year, good or bad.

I can't help but laugh at some of the arguments against AV from the haters on CDC. There are 3 main ones.

1. His success is a result of his players, he is just along for the ride. That's funny, because before he got to Vancouver the Sedin's weren't even PPG players, it was believed Kesler wasn't going to be anything more than a 3rd line checker, and Burrows was still shuttling between Manitoba and Vancouver as a 4th line energy player. He has helped those players blossom.

2. He shows no emotion on the bench. They often refer to how he likes to chew gum so much like it's a bad thing. I mean, who would you like behind the bench when things are getting heated? The guy who is going to keep everyone calm or the guy who is screaming and yelling? The players are going to follow each example the coach sets, but which one is going to result in more success?

3. He sits on the lead in the third period. Go look at the Canucks record when leading after 2 periods in the last 3 years. I think they have 4 losses total.

Haha.... that kind of turned into a little rant, didn't it.

Long story short. He has proved he is a good coach. He has probably only this year to prove he is a great coach that can get his team over the playoff hump and to glory.

You might find this funny but I agree. Vigneault proved himself with the Moose & has improved the Canucks.

I don't often say good things about the Canucks but AV is 1 heck of a coach. Scott Arniel would have been a good choice for any team needing a coaching change but for now AV would be my choice.

I don't like the Canucks & give them little credit for the talent developed in Manitoba as much was more due to 'Zinger then their own efforts but AV coached some of the undrafted finds & molded them into the players they are. Vancouver benefited. I can't fault the guy & if Vancouver axed him he'd probably have another job before the NHL received the papers.

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Well we can't very well shove you into the bushes so.....

How serious is the push to fire AV anyway? I was really surprised to hear that a week or so ago. Just a rogue group of "passionate fans" or does it actually have legs?

Don pretty much summed it up...

The fire AV faction of the fan base is a joke and can't see beyond the end of their arms... ie. short sighted as hell...

ALtho if he were to get fired, i think it would be an AUTOMATIC hire for the flames organization as he would be the perfect coach for your team... i mean PERFECT...

He holds his players accountable and not afraid to sit his stars for a shift or a period... players respect that.

His ability to accomodate and mold his approach and system to his assets is completely unappreciatted, and underrated...

it was just a couple yrs ago that every line juggle he made turned gold... highlighted by putting Burrows on the top line and putting Sundin with Kesler... exploding Kesler's career...

His handling of Raymond.. Edler... the twins...... gold. Juggles with Samuelsson...

2007 - no offensive depth (thanks nonis) but.. one of the best defensive systems in the league and a Jack Adams...

Last couple yrs, the offensive assets come, he adjusts the system accordingly and... fantastic regular seasons, and decent playoff success for the owners winning a couple rounds...

Where he gets most of his critisim is also largely tied to his use of Bieksa... The Canucks whipping boy.

Fans see just the mistakes KB makes without acknowledging the dozen great decsions he makes with the puck every game... a classic high risk, high reward player that polarizes a fanbase and because AV has his back and pushes large minutes on him - Bam... fire AV.

AV's job is as secure as there is this season and if it's ever to be considered in jepordy, it will be ONLY on the heels of an epic fail in the playoffs...

Remember, next yr is the yr for the Canucks to be in position to make serious noise in the playoffs based on the contract structure of the team.....

don't hold your breath for a change unless 2011-2012 starts running a muck..

may line up with the flames faltering and clearing house next yr in the front office and behind the bench... hmmm...

If he ever gets fired (offseason)... he will be scooped up in a week... nooooooo doubt.

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Canucks roll over Leafs tonight. 4-1. Luongo should've had a goose egg but he let in a part softie part unlucky one. Oh wells.

PS. Kesler is playing out of his mind right now. 5 goals and 8 points in last 5 and 14 goals, 10 assists since a 6 game slump to start the season. And at least half of what he does hasn't shown up on the scoresheet.

And I am sure Flames fans will be happy to hear this, is that Kesler has focused more on his play and less on yapping to the opposition. He said that management brought it up after the season in the summer that he could take another step as a player if he did so. And it has shown. I think part of it was that management still saw a little immaturity in him with such acts otherwise he'd be wearing the 'C' on his chest. He is really showing another level of maturity we haven't seen from him yet. Awesome to see.

Oh yeah, and Luongo > Kipper.

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Canucks roll over Leafs tonight. 4-1. Luongo should've had a goose egg but he let in a part softie part unlucky one. Oh wells.

PS. Kesler is playing out of his mind right now. 5 goals and 8 points in last 5 and 14 goals, 10 assists since a 6 game slump to start the season. And at least half of what he does hasn't shown up on the scoresheet.

And I am sure Flames fans will be happy to hear this, is that Kesler has focused more on his play and less on yapping to the opposition. He said that management brought it up after the season in the summer that he could take another step as a player if he did so. And it has shown. I think part of it was that management still saw a little immaturity in him with such acts otherwise he'd be wearing the 'C' on his chest. He is really showing another level of maturity we haven't seen from him yet. Awesome to see.

Oh yeah, and Luongo > Kipper.

Sorry, Kipper >> Luongo still.

But on the other topic, Kesler is definitely a very skilled player and now it shows that his mind is on playing instead of bananaing. He is playing his way into a Selke or at least a high nomination. You hit it right on the head when you said the best parts of his game don't show up on the score sheet. Most "two-way" forwards can do one very well and the other okay, but Kesler is currently combining both at an almost Datsyuk-level. I would say he's is a HUGE part of how well the Canucks are doing (US in the Olympics too).

I would add him to my ideal team as that 2nd line centre any day. His contract is okay at the level he's played before and very good now.

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Canucks roll over Leafs tonight. 4-1. Luongo should've had a goose egg but he let in a part softie part unlucky one. Oh wells.

PS. Kesler is playing out of his mind right now. 5 goals and 8 points in last 5 and 14 goals, 10 assists since a 6 game slump to start the season. And at least half of what he does hasn't shown up on the scoresheet.

And I am sure Flames fans will be happy to hear this, is that Kesler has focused more on his play and less on yapping to the opposition. He said that management brought it up after the season in the summer that he could take another step as a player if he did so. And it has shown. I think part of it was that management still saw a little immaturity in him with such acts otherwise he'd be wearing the 'C' on his chest. He is really showing another level of maturity we haven't seen from him yet. Awesome to see.

Oh yeah, and Luongo > Kipper.

There are a lot of articles on the hockey sites about how much better Kesler is doing since he learned to keep his yap closed. He will be even better as time passes.

Clarke saw that & went the offer sheet route. You guys are lucky it was matched as you've got Richards lite there. I wouldn't be surprised to see him wear the "C" if Henrik agreed.

BTW, Kipper, Lundqvuist (& others) > Luongo.

I could move him lower because of stats but there are many unproven near the top. My favorite team's Boosh & Bob have better #s but neither is a top 10 in my mind. Luongo is about mid-teens in stats but I figure he's in the range of 5-10. The big problem with Luongo is he's the goalie version of Joe Thornton. Very good during the season or international play but somehow not that good in SC playoffs.

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Sorry, Kipper >> Luongo still.

But on the other topic, Kesler is definitely a very skilled player and now it shows that his mind is on playing instead of bananaing. He is playing his way into a Selke or at least a high nomination. You hit it right on the head when you said the best parts of his game don't show up on the score sheet. Most "two-way" forwards can do one very well and the other okay, but Kesler is currently combining both at an almost Datsyuk-level. I would say he's is a HUGE part of how well the Canucks are doing (US in the Olympics too).

I would add him to my ideal team as that 2nd line centre any day. His contract is okay at the level he's played before and very good now.

He's already at a high Selke nomination level. Now he just has to win the damned thing. From the glimpses I've seen of his personality, he is the kind of guy that takes everything personally. Losing out on the Selke by a slim margin, be booted from the playoffs by the Hawks again, losing in the gold medal game, not being named captain. He takes all of this stuff and kinda says "Oh Yeah?" and uses it as his motivation to get better.

I don't remember as far back as when he was drafted, but I do remember when he had he first tastes in the NHL in 04 and then his rookie season in 05/06. A lot of people thought what we saw was what we were going to get. A 3rd line checking center who was going to add some offence here and there, and maybe be a 50-point guy one day. I think that had a positive effect on his growth over the last 3 years or so. He wanted to prove everyone that he was far more than that. And by golly has it ever paid off. I would love to see him continue this play for the entire season. We could have three players in the top 20 in scoring in the NHL. :)

And Luongo > Kipper still. Ever since getting embarrassed by the Hawks at home Lou has been playing at the level we all knew he could. Give it a month or so, and his numbers will be right there with the league leaders. Meanwhile Kippers seem to be going in the other direction. I keep forgetting to call him Kipruso77 after the 7 goals we dropped on him a couple weeks ago. But it's not as fun without KH around. Is he on vaca or something?

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There are a lot of articles on the hockey sites about how much better Kesler is doing since he learned to keep his yap closed. He will be even better as time passes.

Clarke saw that & went the offer sheet route. You guys are lucky it was matched as you've got Richards lite there. I wouldn't be surprised to see him wear the "C" if Henrik agreed.

BTW, Kipper, Lundqvuist (& others) > Luongo.

I could move him lower because of stats but there are many unproven near the top. My favorite team's Boosh & Bob have better #s but neither is a top 10 in my mind. Luongo is about mid-teens in stats but I figure he's in the range of 5-10. The big problem with Luongo is he's the goalie version of Joe Thornton. Very good during the season or international play but somehow not that good in SC playoffs.

Lucky... psshhhh. Maybe if Clarkey gave him a substantial offer. :P

I do remember a lot of people saying at the time that he was overpaid. And he was. But we knew we had to do it because of the player he was going to be. He ain't no Mike Richards lite, he's just and American Mike Richards.

And I could totally seeing a year or 2 from now Henrik going to management and saying give the 'C' to Kes. For all we know, there is an agreement already between Henrik, Ryan, and Mike about it, and Kesler's maturity this season is him proving he can handle it. And even if not, Henrik's such a classy guy that I could see him stepping aside knowing it means more to Kesler to have it that it does to him.

I made a thread a few weeks ago about who the best goalie is right now, both here and on CDC. And even after discounting the homerism on both sites, Kipper, Luongo, Lundqvist and Miller were the top answers. They'd definitely be 4 of my top 5.

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Lucky... psshhhh. Maybe if Clarkey gave him a substantial offer. :P

I do remember a lot of people saying at the time that he was overpaid. And he was. But we knew we had to do it because of the player he was going to be. He ain't no Mike Richards lite, he's just and American Mike Richards.

And I could totally seeing a year or 2 from now Henrik going to management and saying give the 'C' to Kes. For all we know, there is an agreement already between Henrik, Ryan, and Mike about it, and Kesler's maturity this season is him proving he can handle it. And even if not, Henrik's such a classy guy that I could see him stepping aside knowing it means more to Kesler to have it that it does to him.

I made a thread a few weeks ago about who the best goalie is right now, both here and on CDC. And even after discounting the homerism on both sites, Kipper, Luongo, Lundqvist and Miller were the top answers. They'd definitely be 4 of my top 5.

Clarke's offer was higher then what Vancouver was going to offer so left them scrambling for space. It was more then he was worth @ the time but nowhere near what he's worth now. We didn't have loads of cap space either & nobody knew if Kesler would be a stud or a dud. It was a roll of the dice basically. Canucks won.

Goalies are a matter of opinion as we use different references. Some thing a SC makes them great, others use SV% or GA. I prefer to watch them. Shots against don't matter if they come from low % spots like outside the blueline but count as a save. Fuhr had a fairly high GA with the SC Oilers (about 3.0 per season) but the team in front scored a lot of goals so he's in the HHOF. IMO the greats make critical saves to keep the team in it. Kipper, Lunqvist, Miller & Backstrom fall into that category as they can carry a team on their back.

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Clarke's offer was higher then what Vancouver was going to offer so left them scrambling for space. It was more then he was worth @ the time but nowhere near what he's worth now. We didn't have loads of cap space either & nobody knew if Kesler would be a stud or a dud. It was a roll of the dice basically. Canucks won.

Goalies are a matter of opinion as we use different references. Some thing a SC makes them great, others use SV% or GA. I prefer to watch them. Shots against don't matter if they come from low % spots like outside the blueline but count as a save. Fuhr had a fairly high GA with the SC Oilers (about 3.0 per season) but the team in front scored a lot of goals so he's in the HHOF. IMO the greats make critical saves to keep the team in it. Kipper, Lunqvist, Miller & Backstrom fall into that category as they can carry a team on their back.

Luongo's carried his team further than Backstrom and as far as Lundqvist into the playoffs. And only Miller has more series wins than Lou.

You are right though. The best way to truly analuze goalies is by monitoring them on a scout-like level. Unfortunately the average fan does not have that capability. I think that is where stats and accomplishments come in.

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Canucks roll over Leafs tonight. 4-1. Luongo should've had a goose egg but he let in a part softie part unlucky one. Oh wells.

PS. Kesler is playing out of his mind right now. 5 goals and 8 points in last 5 and 14 goals, 10 assists since a 6 game slump to start the season. And at least half of what he does hasn't shown up on the scoresheet.

And I am sure Flames fans will be happy to hear this, is that Kesler has focused more on his play and less on yapping to the opposition. He said that management brought it up after the season in the summer that he could take another step as a player if he did so. And it has shown. I think part of it was that management still saw a little immaturity in him with such acts otherwise he'd be wearing the 'C' on his chest. He is really showing another level of maturity we haven't seen from him yet. Awesome to see.

Oh yeah, and Luongo > Kipper.

Wow! What can u say about Kesler, He does it all.

Please don't remind Flames Fans of Yapping,Management,summer or immaturity as they will become very Angry. :P

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