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Discussion & Debate Thread: Flames and Canucks

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Canucks roll over Leafs tonight. 4-1. Luongo should've had a goose egg but he let in a part softie part unlucky one. Oh wells.

PS. Kesler is playing out of his mind right now. 5 goals and 8 points in last 5 and 14 goals, 10 assists since a 6 game slump to start the season. And at least half of what he does hasn't shown up on the scoresheet.

And I am sure Flames fans will be happy to hear this, is that Kesler has focused more on his play and less on yapping to the opposition. He said that management brought it up after the season in the summer that he could take another step as a player if he did so. And it has shown. I think part of it was that management still saw a little immaturity in him with such acts otherwise he'd be wearing the 'C' on his chest. He is really showing another level of maturity we haven't seen from him yet. Awesome to see.

Oh yeah, and Luongo < Kipper. :rolleyes:

I didn't watch the entire game but close enough and it looked as though the Leafs were giving all the Canucks could handle for much of that game. Luongo was solid except for that one softy (I don't know where the unluckiness reference comes from). It is really weird seeing Kesler acting all mature and controlled, he could do commercials for Ritalin, quite a transformation.

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Luongo's carried his team further than Backstrom and as far as Lundqvist into the playoffs. And only Miller has more series wins than Lou.

You are right though. The best way to truly analuze goalies is by monitoring them on a scout-like level. Unfortunately the average fan does not have that capability. I think that is where stats and accomplishments come in.

But Luongo has the advantage of the team in front of him being able to score. He doesn't have to keep GA to 2 or less every night like Backstrom. He also receives better support from his D then Lundqvist. These are things I look @ when rating the goalies. So Luongo didn't really carry the team. He was an important piece but they didn't get into the playoffs on his back.

Luongo was amazing in Florida when he faced enough rubber to supply the Goodyear factory but the team in front of him couldn't score. His #s in Vancouver are about the same but the saves don't have to be as spectacular & the mistakes are magnified.

He's good enough to be in my top 5-10. I'd rate him above M A Fleury, Thomas or Price who get more ink from the eastern dominated media.

*I hope soon I can talk about a Flyer goalie that I rank that high.*

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But Luongo has the advantage of the team in front of him being able to score. He doesn't have to keep GA to 2 or less every night like Backstrom. He also receives better support from his D then Lundqvist. These are things I look @ when rating the goalies. So Luongo didn't really carry the team. He was an important piece but they didn't get into the playoffs on his back.

Luongo was amazing in Florida when he faced enough rubber to supply the Goodyear factory but the team in front of him couldn't score. His #s in Vancouver are about the same but the saves don't have to be as spectacular & the mistakes are magnified.

He's good enough to be in my top 5-10. I'd rate him above M A Fleury, Thomas or Price who get more ink from the eastern dominated media.

*I hope soon I can talk about a Flyer goalie that I rank that high.*

I definitely get what you are saying. But in the 2007 playoffs Luongo carried his team through the regular season and through the playoffs as far as he could. Turns out a goalie playing on his own can only go so far. His stats were .941 and 1.77 in his 12 games.

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I definitely get what you are saying. But in the 2007 playoffs Luongo carried his team through the regular season and through the playoffs as far as he could. Turns out a goalie playing on his own can only go so far. His stats were .941 and 1.77 in his 12 games.

The only thing that hurt him that year was his bladder.

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Canucks jump 6 spots to #1 on TSN's Power Rankings.

http://www.tsn.ca/fantasy_news/rankings/nhl/

And before you jump in with the "Power Rankings are biased BS" argument, I am saying this means they are sure-fire Cup winners. Just a recognition of their strong play lately.

TSN also has the Flyers 4th.

THN has Flyers 1st & Canucks 6th.

It used to be we relied on sports writers to have more insight then fans. With the information available via the net they've become bloggers with a steady paycheck. There are a lot of posters that seem to have as much or (often) more comprehension then the scribes.

& yes Don, I include you, DL & Ace (in no particular order)among those. You naturally have your Vancouver bias (as I have my Flyers/Flames take) but every poster/writer puts their own slant on things. A lot of posters both here & the Flyer board are open enough to give credit when due even when it's to a rival.

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TSN also has the Flyers 4th.

THN has Flyers 1st & Canucks 6th.

It used to be we relied on sports writers to have more insight then fans. With the information available via the net they've become bloggers with a steady paycheck. There are a lot of posters that seem to have as much or (often) more comprehension then the scribes.

& yes Don, I include you, DL & Ace (in no particular order)among those. You naturally have your Vancouver bias (as I have my Flyers/Flames take) but every poster/writer puts their own slant on things. A lot of posters both here & the Flyer board are open enough to give credit when due even when it's to a rival.

My argument is that if we had the luxury of spending our working hours on hockey matters, and had the inside connections and sources, we'd be able to do the job just as well.

Honestly, I think ESPN has it right.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/powerrankings

Flyers

Pens

Canucks

Wings

Stars

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The numbers after 30 games....

Canucks (Flames in brackets)

10 gms: 5-3-2, 12 pts, 2nd in the NW, 9th in the West, 16th overall (6-5, 12 pts, 3rd, 10th, 17th)

20 gms: 10-7-3, 23pts, 2nd in the NW, 8th in the West, 15th Overall (8-11-1, 17pts, 4th, 14th, 27th)

30 gms: 18-8-4, 40pts, 2nd in the NW, 4th in the West, 9th Overall ( 33gms, 14-16-3, 31pts, 4th, 14th, 24th)

Point %

10 gms: 0.600, 10th (17th)

20 gms: 0.575, 15th (27th)

30 gms: 0.667, 3rd (23rd)

G/gm

10 gms: 2.70, 18th (13th)

20 gms: 2.90, 13th, (12th)

30 gms: 3.23, 4th, (18th)

GA/gm

10 gms: 2.20, 3rd (22nd)

20 gms: 2.70, 13th (23rd)

30 gms: 2.50, 7th (19th)

PP %

10 gms: 21.0%, 9th (25th)

20 gms: 27.0, 1st (19th)

30 gms: 23.8, 3rd (23rd)

PK %

10 gms: 84.6, 13th (19th)

20 gms: 87.2, 5th (20th)

30 gms: 85.0, 5th (23rd)

PP G

10 gms: 8, 10th (19th)

20 gms: 20, 2nd (14th)

30 gms: 17, 4th (26th)

PP GA

10 gms: 6, 9th (16th)

20 gms: 10, 5th (20th)

30 gms: 30, 4th (14th)

SoG

10 gms: 30.5, 17th (10th)

20 gms: 31.4, 11th (10th)

30 gms: 30.5, 16th, (17th)

SoGA

10 gms: 30.7, 18th (9th)

20 gms: 31.4, 20th (12th)

30 gms: 29.2, 13th (9th)

+/-

10 gms: +3, 10th (15th)

20 gms: -6, 21st (18th)

30 gms: +10, 7th (18th)

Faceoffs

10 gms: 56.5, 1st (23rd)

20 gms: 56.6, 1st (27th)

30 gms: 57.4, 1st (24th)

Hits

10 gms: 257, 9th (19th)

20 gms: 468, 8th (17th)

30 gms: 684, 19th, (18th)

Blocked Shots

10 gms: 144, 18th (15th)

20 gms: 281, 17th (22nd)

30 gms: 431, 20th (12th)

Giveaways

10 gms: 58, 5th (25th)

20 gms: 137, 7th (17th)

30 gms: 196, 6th (24th)

Takeaways

10 gms: 81, 8th (11th)

20 gms: 159, 6th (21st)

30 gms: 237, 14th, (18th)

Shootout

Van: 1-2

Cal: 3-2

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8-1-1, 17 pts in the last 10 and still haven't passed the Avs...

Avs have gone 7-3-3 for the same 17pts over the same span of time.

gained a few games in hand over Avs and the rest of the conference tho and now sit 3rd in the league in point percentage... which is awesome.

6 gms on Ana

5 gms on Chi

3 gms on Dal, Col, SJ...

2 gms on Det, Nash

At least 1 gm on everyone else in the West...

At least 3 gms in hand on the whole top 6 of the East.

No one has fewer losses, and only Philly has fewer regulation losses.

The Flames are very slowly trekking in the right direction in terms of points. Big set back with the 4pt gm vs the wild but are 6-5-1 (0.542) in their last 12... won 2 of the last 3 on the glass half full side...

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My argument is that if we had the luxury of spending our working hours on hockey matters, and had the inside connections and sources, we'd be able to do the job just as well.

Honestly, I think ESPN has it right.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/powerrankings

Flyers

Pens

Canucks

Wings

Stars

ESPN is 1 of the least credible sources. After announcing everything else it's like "Oh yeah, there were hockey games played tonight. For the few interested these are the scores".

They were OK when they had the contract to broadcast but since then they don't devote much coverage. My American friends tell me the hockey is near the end of the broadcast. A guy driving a hopped up car gets more air time then a hat-play.

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ESPN is 1 of the least credible sources. After announcing everything else it's like "Oh yeah, there were hockey games played tonight. For the few interested these are the scores".

They were OK when they had the contract to broadcast but since then they don't devote much coverage. My American friends tell me the hockey is near the end of the broadcast. A guy driving a hopped up car gets more air time then a hat-play.

That may be true of the network heads and the level of their on-air coverage.... but you can't bash the crdibility of Scotty and Pierre LeBrun... they are real hockey guys that follow as well as any other hockey writer and are the prime contributors to their NHL section... I used to like Bucci as well, but i think he got transfered to baseball... Scotty and LeBrun do the rankings...

and there is no such thing as a credible power rankings... every rankings list varies into what degree they factor Recent play vs Overall season vs Future predicted performance...

Overall season is boring... just use standings based on pt percentage... so some writers mix it up... controversial selections create discussion - create traffic - increase ad revenue.

nothing to be taken too seriously...

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Speaking of rankings, the logic behind this idiots new rankings defies all logic. :rolleyes:

Vancouver had a fairly slack week and beat the almighty Blue Jackets & Leafs and climbed 6 spots to 1st.

Meanwhile Philadelphia moved down 2 spots after posting 3 wins against tougher opponents.

Even more mind-boggling is Colorado & Dallas remaining static with numerous wins against quality clubs.

I definitely agree the Canucks should move up into the top 3 or 4, but 1st, GTFO!

I would be more inclined to put Philly up there. Substantial moves should have occurred by Colorado & Dallas.

Of course the Flames deserve their static mid-20's spot.

TSN NHL Power Rankings (Scott Cullen)

1 (7) Vancouver Canucks18-8-4 --- 2W vs CBJ-TOR

2 (2) Pittsburgh Penguins21-10-2 --- 2L vs PHI-NYR

3 (1) Detroit Red Wings20-8-4 --- 3L vs LAK-CHI-DAL + 1W vs STL

4 (3) Boston Bruins17-10-4

5 (5) Atlanta Thrashers18-11-5

6 (4) Philadelphia Flyers22-7-5 --- 3 W vs PIT-MON-NYR

7 (6) Montreal Canadiens19-12-2

8 (8) Colorado Avalanche19-10-4 --- 4W vs CHI-CHI-OTT-MTL

9 (14) Chicago Blackhawks18-14-3 --- 2L vs COL + 2W vs DET-LAK

10 (11) Los Angeles Kings18-12-1

11 (10) San Jose Sharks17-11-5

12 (12) Dallas Stars20-10-3 --- 3W vs SJS-CLB-DET + 1L vs SJS

24 (24) Calgary Flames 14-16-3

He does explain his methodology for his reasoning and claims no bias but based on what I see, his rankings seem to be statistical excrement.

(These rankings are posted Mondays so the games from Monday night to Sunday night are inclusive.)

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Speaking of rankings, the logic behind this idiots new rankings defies all logic. :rolleyes:

Vancouver had a fairly slack week and beat the almighty Blue Jackets & Leafs and climbed 6 spots to 1st.

Meanwhile Philadelphia moved down 2 spots after posting 3 wins against tougher opponents.

Even more mind-boggling is Colorado & Dallas remaining static with numerous wins against quality clubs.

I definitely agree the Canucks should move up into the top 3 or 4, but 1st, GTFO!

I would be more inclined to put Philly up there. Substantial moves should have occurred by Colorado & Dallas.

Of course the Flames deserve their static mid-20's spot.

TSN NHL Power Rankings (Scott Cullen)

1 (7) Vancouver Canucks18-8-4 --- 2W vs CBJ-TOR

2 (2) Pittsburgh Penguins21-10-2 --- 2L vs PHI-NYR

3 (1) Detroit Red Wings20-8-4 --- 3L vs LAK-CHI-DAL + 1W vs STL

4 (3) Boston Bruins17-10-4

5 (5) Atlanta Thrashers18-11-5

6 (4) Philadelphia Flyers22-7-5 --- 3 W vs PIT-MON-NYR

7 (6) Montreal Canadiens19-12-2

8 (8) Colorado Avalanche19-10-4 --- 4W vs CHI-CHI-OTT-MTL

9 (14) Chicago Blackhawks18-14-3 --- 2L vs COL + 2W vs DET-LAK

10 (11) Los Angeles Kings18-12-1

11 (10) San Jose Sharks17-11-5

12 (12) Dallas Stars20-10-3 --- 3W vs SJS-CLB-DET + 1L vs SJS

24 (24) Calgary Flames 14-16-3

He does explain his methodology for his reasoning and claims no bias but based on what I see, his rankings seem to be statistical excrement.

(These rankings are posted Mondays so the games from Monday night to Sunday night are inclusive.)

TSN is notorious for weighing injuries and future performance... if you've followed their rankings all season, the Philly dropped was completely expected. Again, different rankings, different logic.

7 to 1 is drastic... but they are a canadian team.. 9-1-1 run..

The Canucks D is finally playing as a unit and with has limited teams to under 23 shots or less 4 of the last 6...

The mentioned the Avs D... the Wins will not continue to pile up with their D playing the way it is. Plus who of the top 7 teams do they displace? Montreal? - but they're canadian heh heh... But i would definitely rank em higher...

i'm always entertained how flustered some get about power rankings... not necessarily here, but yeah... people get pissed off. check out some of the comments... comedy.

Might as well present my power rankings: Combo of overall season, and future expectations... sprinkle of recent runs:

1) Pit - Malkin blasts back into the fantasy picture with a 5pt night.. if he gets rolling too...

2) Philly - getting blown away in their second game without Pronger is not a good sign

3) Van

4) Det - fallen off their typical systems play and aren't dominating like were early

5) Dal - Crawford deserves some love, Richards isn't going anywhere, and balanced scoring

6) Col - They are hot offensively, and just barely good enough defensively. But they're winning.

7) Atl - The infussion of stanley cup winners has been awesome and will help Kane develop properly

8) Nash - UNDERRATED - they just don't lose often, Weber is coming back into form and Surprise!-they found another young goalie stud

9) TB - gotta give Stamkos/St Louis some top 10 love.. on fire and sit top 5 in league scoring. but need Downie back.

10) SJ - despite thornton and marleau's struggles, they are warming up as the depth is developing

11) Wash - expecting them to roll again now - big month coming.. maybe

12) Bos

13) Mtl

The rest i didn't fret over too much...

14) LAK

15) Phx

16) NYR

17) Ana - I just think they'll roll as soon as their D find their groove

18) Chi - they'll roll once Hossa/Kane arrive

19) CBJ - Arniel had them early but then... will the backend be able to tighten up..

20) Car

21) Min - huge back2back clutch victories vs the Flames - now can they build on it?

22) Fla

23) StL - can't overlook 3 of their top 4 or 5 fwds missing

24) Edm - gms in hand - extra critical practice days. expect to see a respectable 2nd half

25) Ott

26) Buf

27) Cal - lowest pt% in the West now and scoring like it. No help for Kipper on his off-nights

28) NJD

29) Tor

30) NYI

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DL's take is as good as the 1s on the sports sites.

I'd add to the Flyers take that they started the Christmas break a day early. They seriously looked like they were all hungover. The only player I remember that did that well was the Riverton Rifle.

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DL's take is as good as the 1s on the sports sites.

See that is sort of my point...

We can totally come up with a reasonable list here, and people would read and go 'yeah... sounds good' and then click the next page...

What did i accomplish? (from a business standpoint i mean..)

BUT if i take 1 team and boost em higher than expected, and take another drop em lower than expected... THEN people get ruffled... they comment on the 'injustice'... they link it in a message board... email it to their friend who is a fan of the dropped team...

That's when the hits go up.

I'm not a fan... but Eklund is an internet genius in this regard.

Scott Cullen always has people linking his rankings because of some controversy about how he selects...

and i find it funny how wound up people get about it...

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So the Flames have 3 prospects heading to the WJC, the Canucks have none:

Flames - 1

Canucks - 0

Ortio, Ramage and Erixon all made their respective national rosters.

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So the Flames have 3 prospects heading to the WJC, the Canucks have none:

Flames - 1

Canucks - 0

Ortio, Ramage and Erixon all made their respective national rosters.

That's actually quite promising for the flames future... Good Job Darryl Sutter!

- obviously this is one of the chips he's playing to show he's doing an effective job at the development level.

Canucks didn't have a pick till the 4th round last yr, so it's not too surprising for this yr's tourny..

Enjoy the tourny flames fan... it's always fun to see your prospects perform in this tourny.. see how they stack up.

it wasn't too long ago (last yr or the yr before) the canucks were sitting with 3+ players in the tourny... Schroeder, Rodin, Hodgson - off the top of my head. fun.

Go Darryl!

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That's actually quite promising for the flames future... Good Job Darryl Sutter!

- obviously this is one of the chips he's playing to show he's doing an effective job at the development level.

Canucks didn't have a pick till the 4th round last yr, so it's not too surprising for this yr's tourny..

Enjoy the tourny flames fan... it's always fun to see your prospects perform in this tourny.. see how they stack up.

it wasn't too long ago (last yr or the yr before) the canucks were sitting with 3+ players in the tourny... Schroeder, Rodin, Hodgson - off the top of my head. fun.

Go Darryl!

I think I'm most excited just to see how they fare against similar competition; it gives a better look at who sticks at the NHL level than the junior leagues, IMO.

My post was a joking prod mostly; having 3 prospects does not equate to a great future. But its nice to know some other organizations value your prospects.

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Canucks roll over fellow Cup Contender Flyers tonight. Now lead all NHL in point% and goals/game. Also near that top in goals against (7th), PP% (2nd), PK% (5th), and 5-on-5 ratio (6th).

Oh, and dominating the league in faceoffs. First place with 57.3% over #2 San Jose by almost 4 whole percent.

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Canucks roll over fellow Cup Contender Flyers tonight. Now lead all NHL in point% and goals/game. Also near that top in goals against (7th), PP% (2nd), PK% (5th), and 5-on-5 ratio (6th).

Oh, and dominating the league in faceoffs. First place with 57.3% over #2 San Jose by almost 4 whole percent.

blah blah blah, I can't hear you because I have my one plastic replica Stanley Cup ring in my ear and I'm switching it back and forth between my two ears.

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blah blah blah, I can't hear you because I have my one plastic replica Stanley Cup ring in my ear and I'm switching it back and forth between my two ears.

Its okay. They'll dominate the league for the regular season, and then epically choke in the 2nd round.

Its really simple.

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Its okay. They'll dominate the league for the regular season, and then epically choke in the 2nd round.

Its really simple.

I'd be honored for the opportunity.

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I can't ever remember a canucks team that was this well-rounded and deep...

Trumps the the WCE yrs... challenged by the early 90's version. the '94 team was probably as deep on paper, but never as dominant during the reg season.

At the top of the rankings across the board..

And set to become deeper... Raymond and Salo.

but i still don't know what the plan will be to get Salo back on the active roster in the coming month or 2... just save him for the playoffs when cap doesn't matter!

Speaking of LTI - i assume Langkow is still experiencing neurological deficit?

This thread would be waaaay more fun right now if the Flames were actually competitive this yr...

I even have tickets to the Jan 5th tilt... bought 2-3 months ago.

This yr i'm hoping for a 1st round matchup with the Hawks... can't wait to see that..

blah blah blah, I can't hear you because I have my one plastic replica Stanley Cup ring in my ear and I'm switching it back and forth between my two ears.

:lol:

nice.

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This thread would be waaaay more fun right now if the Flames were actually competitive this yr...

That's why I come around here so infrequently lately. Just showing up (as a Canucks fan) seems to rile the angry horde.

I mean -- look at chief. He's just one small step away from slinging a carbine over his back and climbing the Calgary Tower.

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That's why I come around here so infrequently lately. Just showing up (as a Canucks fan) seems to rile the angry horde.

I mean -- look at chief. He's just one small step away from slinging a carbine over his back and climbing the Calgary Tower.

Chairman, you've been in enemy territory before. You know a lot of us use humor to deflect.

Sincerely, Grinch.

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