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Discussion & Debate Thread: Flames and Canucks

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Whoot! club record....I just hope they finish it off with a Rocket & Conn Smythe ^_^

If the Conn Smythe is obtained in a fashion similar to these fine players (Roger Crozier, Glenn Hall, Reggie Leach, Ron Hextall, Jean-Sebastien Giguere), I am OK with this. :)

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Easy ro say, but I think that is an oversimplification that misses a lot of the issues.

The fact is they are where they are for another year until all those contracts expire. It makes the most sense to work with what they have. Also, winning is always better than losing as both are contageous.

The success they had in the second half shed light on many players. Glencross showed improvement, Tanguay justified the faith, as did Joker. Iggy showed that he is not yet on the decline, and Gio proved that last year wasn't a fluke. Conversely, JBo, who looked good most of the year, faded down the stretch. And Hagman and Srajan proved they should not be part of the future. In other words, they learned who to continue with and where to change. And the winning streak restored the confidence of several of the players.

So the success that the team had in the second half, whether they make the playoffs or not, was far more valuable than having a completely blown year and getting a 6th or 7th pick - especially in a soft draft.

Conversely, what did the Oilers get out of this season, other than some ice time for their kids? Nothing really. All they got was another year entrenched in a culture of losing.

So I'll take our season all day long compaired to what it could have been.

What the Oilers got out of this year cant be judged by today. They went into the season with young prospects and wanted to get them experience. They got a full year under there belt and that will be invaluable. The Hawks went through the same thing as did the Penguins with there young studs. Id argue that this year has been great for Backlund and he will be a stronger player next year. The Oilers werent expecting to make the playoffs and arent loaded with vets who have a 'win it now ' mentality.

Glencross and Tangs had decent years, but can Calgary keep both ? Even if they do and go into next year with basically the same team you cant judge this season soley on the 2nd half. And thats the reasoning that id be worried about if the GM stands pat and doesnt do anything. He took that chance at trade deadline ( which was probably the right move) but it appears that it wont work. At some point hard decisions will have to be made about the core of this group ,not just tinkering around with the 3rd/4th lines.

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Couldn't have been bothered in this case as that was not the point of the discussion.

It was meant partially in jest, I really don't think you should have needed to check.

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however, drafting a talented player or two can help introduce that "winning culture". Ever heard of Patrick Kane and Jonathan Toews??

Edit: since I'm here, I might as well point out what dhabums is saying: the Thrash got Hossa from Ottawa in the trade that, ironically, sent Heatley out.

Also, I wouldn't call Hossa a francise player. Or Heatley for that matter.

Never heard of them. ^_^

Not many individual players can introduce a winning culture. Certainly Crosby could and he joins as elite list. You could argue that Toews did as well. But as is usually the case, Toews had plenty of help as someone pointed out.

I find it absolutely amazing that people continually group the Oilers in with Chicago and Pittsburg as if it is a foregone conclusion taht they will be cup contenders in a couple years simply because they have a couple good draft picks.

They might. But they are a long long way from that happening. And there are a LOT more cases of rebuilding never amounting to anything than there are cases of a sure-fire powerhouse.

As for Hossa not being a franchise player, yeah I agree. But I don't think Kovalchuk is either. To me, the term franchise player is over-used. Very few 1st overall picks become franchise players - there are no guarantees at all.

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Toews and Kane I don't think just showed up waved a magic wand and they started winning they had support. Keith, Seabrook, Sharp, Bolland, Byfuglien.

you missed the point. The point was that the drafting of those two players almost immediately HELPED to turn the team around. I never said anything about magic wands.

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you missed the point. The point was that the drafting of those two players almost immediately HELPED to turn the team around. I never said anything about magic wands.

True, but the other point that people are trying to make about Chicago is that it took YEARS of sucking and several false starts before a couple good draft picks came along and helped improve the team.

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Neither Kovalchuk NOR Bouw "walked away" as UFAs. While the Flames only have up a pick for exclusive negotiating rights with the savior, the Thrasher actually did ok in getting some talent back.

This is true, good point but still the point I am trying to make is that a "franchise" player has to want to stay with the team and those are two examples where they didn't. You are correct the Thrash especially did get something for Kovalchuk, more than what the Panthers got for a week of talking to Jbo.

At the bottom line though where are these teams after almost a full decade of being out of the playoffs and with a almost a full decade of high picks. They are both going to miss the playoffs again.

I used to entertain those thoughts, as many do, that the way to the Cup is through the basement but I no longer want to take that path. The Nucks, Bruins and several other teams for that matter are proof that you do not need to plummet to the bottom to build a Cup contender.

What the Oilers got out of this year cant be judged by today. They went into the season with young prospects and wanted to get them experience. They got a full year under there belt and that will be invaluable. The Hawks went through the same thing as did the Penguins with there young studs. Id argue that this year has been great for Backlund and he will be a stronger player next year. The Oilers werent expecting to make the playoffs and arent loaded with vets who have a 'win it now ' mentality.

Glencross and Tangs had decent years, but can Calgary keep both ? Even if they do and go into next year with basically the same team you cant judge this season soley on the 2nd half. And thats the reasoning that id be worried about if the GM stands pat and doesnt do anything. He took that chance at trade deadline ( which was probably the right move) but it appears that it wont work. At some point hard decisions will have to be made about the core of this group ,not just tinkering around with the 3rd/4th lines.

In all honesty, as much as I would like to see moves and tweaks, whoever the GM is going to be and regardless of the Flames second half or not - the new GM simply will not have much flexibility. 10 NTCs - a roster of 19 players already on contract and a team up at the Cep ceiling.

If you are expecting a lot of moves this off-season I am not sure how - unless players waive those NTCs and I don't think they will be.

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I used to entertain those thoughts, as many do, that the way to the Cup is through the basement but I no longer want to take that path. The Nucks, Bruins and several other teams for that matter are proof that you do not need to plummet to the bottom to build a Cup contender.

I do not think the way to the Cup is through the basement, I was just pointing out a couple of things. The Hawks won the Cup with depth and GREAT drafting in later rounds. The Pens won because of the lock out draft lottery. The Canucks will win because the NHL will tell the officials to help them.

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Congrats to the Nucks and fans on 50 wins...that's pretty epic. I'd be pumped if the Flames hit 50.

I would say thank you... but i had nothing to with it ;)

It's a weird feeling coming down the stretch here.

On one hand, i've been loving how complete this team is and is tops of every prime statistical category..

Individual players are getting their due... the Twins - what more can be said.

Luongo is thriving and mentally at his prime this yr and feels the best he's ever felt in his career.

On the other..

Holes have been poked thru a bit with Malhotra's departure... and Hamhius done for the regular season.

Smauelsson, Edler still out...

Depth is to be tested a bit, but Higgens big 3 pt night is a great sign... and Lapierre's capable play has been good.

Overall, the Vancouver question marks pale in comparison to every other western competitor...

Det, Ana, Chi - goaltending

SJ, Pho - defensive depth

Nashville, Ana, LA - forward depth

LA - team speed

PP woes - Pho, Nash, LA

PK woes - Chi, SJ, Pho, Ana

When you put it in those relative terms, as a fan i have great reason to love my team's chances to win a couple rounds... but i can't help but have those feelings of optimism suppressed... probably has to do to historical precedent of being a Canuck fan for 30 yrs. Sort of like the confidence of a flames fan in the first round.

You have a hope of success... not quite an expectation of success... Altho the yr they've had is making a strong case for expectation to overtake hope.

I won't let it... yet.

Next yr will be our yr tho... ;).. this yr is all bonus.

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2 concussions in a short period for Hamhuis, 4 in his career thats a cause for concern. Any word on Edlers return?

Playoffs..

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Yeah I was just wondering how he was recovering, and if he would be ready for the start or miss a few games.

From what i've heard... he's skating now..

cap dictates he won't be available till the game 1 of the playoffs... and as far as we all know, he's on schedule.

No news to the contrary.

We were sooooo close to having Ballard paired finally with a non-journeyman/non-rookie.. ah well..

all depends on Hamhuis's return, who from reports today feels fine... but will likely be sat out the last couple weeks here. If he returns for gm 1 tho...

canucks are looking like:

Edler-Salo

Hamhuis-Bieksa

Ballard-Ehrhoff

*drool*

hasn't happened all yr because of cap constraints and injuries... but it could happen for game 1 of the playoffs.

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SJ, Pho - defensive depth

I don't know about that. Aucoin, Ekman-Larsson, Morris, Rozsival, Klesla, and Yandle is pretty far from bad (and that's with an injury to Jovanovski). I'd say their biggest concern is scoring. Leading scorer is a dman (Yandle), and the most goals on the team is 18 (tied between Doan, Korpikosky, and Vrbata)

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I don't know about that. Aucoin, Ekman-Larsson, Morris, Rozsival, Klesla, and Yandle is pretty far from bad (and that's with an injury to Jovanovski). I'd say their biggest concern is scoring. Leading scorer is a dman (Yandle), and the most goals on the team is 18 (tied between Doan, Korpikosky, and Vrbata)

Agreed. Not to mention they are all about playing the system which they are EXCELLENT at as a team.

Dave Tippet has em working as a machine together.

Was more referring to offensive pop from the backend when i was thinking of their D. Sort of reflected in their PP standing and their #2 defensive scorer being 12th on the team with 22 pts (Aucoin).

But strictly defensively, their D depth is hardly a weakness at all...

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Agreed. Not to mention they are all about playing the system which they are EXCELLENT at as a team.

Dave Tippet has em working as a machine together.

Was more referring to offensive pop from the backend when i was thinking of their D. Sort of reflected in their PP standing and their #2 defensive scorer being 12th on the team with 22 pts (Aucoin).

But strictly defensively, their D depth is hardly a weakness at all...

I see what you mean. Well, maybe Ekman-Larsson steps it up in the postseason, but you're definitely right on the money about the coaching making such a huge difference with this team. reminds me of the "just will not die" Nashville Predators under Trotz.

If big Jo hadn't gotten hurt, he'd likely be their next leading scorer from the back end.

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How is Manny? I haven't heard anything and I hope he is ok.

Just wondering about the surgery and sending him prayers.

his surgery is scheduled for today, I believe, and he supposedly has one of the best doctors around to work on him, so hopefully it all works out.

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Edler and Alberts will probably take the morning skate on Friday vs the Kings.... via AV.

Not to play... but their first skate back with the boys....

albeit it will be a mere 15ish minutes, it's a start.

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