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Discussion & Debate Thread: Flames and Canucks

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No way! Of course not! It's the organization's fault all the way. That's how we focus our development, and what's helped us become the best team in the league last yr and make a run all the way to the cup finals.

You know that Derf... what a dumb question.

Van cheat, dive, and bite their way to the top. Something your classy organization has no idea about - missing the playoffs for 2 straight yrs.

If Kesler was a Flyer... he would of been nominated for the Lady Byng by now.

maybe even won a couple times too. Duh. Pick your game up Derf.

PS Canucks were not the best team in the league last year... Boston was. HAHAHAHAHA

I rather be classy than trashy. Something you rioters of Vancouver are experts at!

I just didn't understand why DL was so gung ho about Kesler. He's one of the biggest whiners in the league. I would rather be gung ho about someone like Iggy who has all the class in the world and is one of the most popular players in the league.

Derf should just download the Speedy Auto Glass logo & use that.

As long as it doesn't come with the jingle. :)

Hey FF52 - Its just Speedy Glass now. We do all other types of glass repairs other than Auto. We can fix home windows as well as commercial properties. We're growing pretty big now. I'm excited for the company!

the jingle wouldn't bother me overmuch since I keep my computer muted.:P

San Jose is a bit of a conundrum, in that they have practically nothing waiting on the wings (other than goalies).

their top six looks... well, spectacular. Bottom 6 looks... not spectacular. Still have plenty of cap space though. Defense looks great.

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS

Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)

Ryane Clowe ($3.625m) / Logan Couture ($1.241m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m)

Torrey Mitchell ($1.366m) / Michal Handzus ($2.500m) / Jamie McGinn ($0.680m)

Benn Ferriero ($0.605m) / Andrew Murray ($0.575m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.540m)

DEFENSEMEN

Dan Boyle ($6.666m) / Brent Burns ($3.550m)

Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m) / Douglas Murray ($2.500m)

Jason Demers ($1.250m) / Jim Vandermeer ($1.000m)

Justin Braun ($0.875m) / Mike Moore ($0.512m)

GOALTENDERS

Antti Niemi ($3.800m) / Antero Niittymaki ($2.000m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)

(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)

SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $59,287,501; BONUSES: $587,500

CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $5,012,499

I see them finishing awfully high, though.

SJS likely will capture Western Conference Title this year. I don't see any team as deep as theirs. The Flames could give them a run seeing how we're playing in one of the weaker divisions. My predictions for the Northwest division this year looks something like this.

Flames 107 pts

Canucks 89 pts

Wild 88 pts

Oilers 74 pts

Avalance 62 pts

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My predictions for the Northwest division this year looks something like this.

Flames 107 pts

Canucks 89 pts

Wild 88 pts

Oilers 74 pts

Avalance 62 pts

Since this is a debate and discussions thread, and you insist on posting in it...

Care to explain your logic of how Vancouver misses the playoffs with 89 pts after getting the 117 the yr before?

or is it as simple as... "they're gross, and ugly, and smell funny and don't deserve it"?

just curious.

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Hey FF52 - Its just Speedy Glass now. We do all other types of glass repairs other than Auto. We can fix home windows as well as commercial properties. We're growing pretty big now. I'm excited for the company!

I heard through the grapevine the Vancouver franchises were very busy in June. :lol:

They've always done the commercial/home glass too but the old jingle comes to mind every time I see 1 of your posts.

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Since this is a debate and discussions thread, and you insist on posting in it...

Care to explain your logic of how Vancouver misses the playoffs with 89 pts after getting the 117 the yr before?

or is it as simple as... "they're gross, and ugly, and smell funny and don't deserve it"?

just curious.

1st DL, A team does a previous season has nothing to do with the upcoming one but since you're so fixated on the past then how did Chicago last year BARELY made it in the playoffs ... How does Carolina misses playoffs after winning the cup, You're so hung up on the past lets discuss about the Canucks past 7 games.

They were unscored very recently 23 - 8 by the Bruins. Luongo is a failure during clutch times. Canucks powerplay was horrible during clutch times, their penalty kill was horrible during clutch times, they cannot create offence when it is needed, they cannot play defence when it is needed. Canucks are failures when it meant the most. It means absolutely nothing to come First in the regular season and not winning the cup. The cup is the main goal. When I look at great teams in the past, you only consider the champions like the Oilers, the Flames, the Canadiens more recently, Chicago, Pittsburg, Detroit, Anaheim, Carolina, Tampa, New Jersey, Colorado, Dallas, etc.

I'm a person who hates to focus on the past (although I do like the fact that Calgary raised the cup something that Vancouver will never do) I will discuss the current situation.

1. Vancouver lost their #1 Defenceman Christian Ehrhoff

2. Vancouver players coming down from previous season point totals - players including H. Sedin, Burrows, Kesler, Samuelson, Raymond, Malhotra, Edler, Hamhuis, Bieksa, Glass, Salo, Ballard, Alberts. This is a good indication of careers peaking and coming down from their primes. Face the fact, the Canucks are getting older and slower.

3. Raymond is coming off a major back surgery. May never again be 100%

4. Malhotra is coming off a major eye surgery. Also may never be 100%. Look at his decline in faceoff % when he came back against Boston. He is practically only playing out of one eye now.

These are just some of the obvious facts. You'll probably reply with something stupid without any evidence or some irrelevant fact with your Canuck biased opinion.

Balls in your hands now DL... whatcha got?

I heard through the grapevine the Vancouver franchises were very busy in June. :lol:

They've always done the commercial/home glass too but the old jingle comes to mind every time I see 1 of your posts.

I liked that old jingle too!

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1st DL, A team does a previous season has nothing to do with the upcoming one but since you're so fixated on the past then how did Chicago last year BARELY made it in the playoffs ... How does Carolina misses playoffs after winning the cup, You're so hung up on the past lets discuss about the Canucks past 7 games.

History strongly shows the opposite... that how a team does one yr does in fact strongly correlate to how they do the next season. The only reasons they don't are the usual extenuating circumstances - turnover and/or man games lost, and/or shift in coaching, and/or development of star players... none of which are relevant to the canucks present personnel situation going into next season..

Chi was missing Ladd, Byfuglien, Versteeg, Niemi, Madden, etc.. They went from 112 to 97pts.

Vancouver is missing just Ehrhoff and Torres... and you predict 117 to 89? -28 pts?

nope... no bias there.

Yet somehow the exact same Cgy team that missed the playoffs is going from 94 to 107.. heh heh... good luck with that.

Need further confirmation... go thru the 30 teams last yr, and see how many ended up around the same as the previous yr...

Van 1 3 defensive overhaul

SJ 2 1

Det 3 5

Ana 4 11 Perry

Nas 5 7

Pho 6 4

LA 7 6

Chi 8 2 Personnel changes already mentioned

Dal 9 12

Cal 10 10

StL 11 9

Min 12 13

CBJ 13 14

Col 14 8 Massive injury problems - Were on pace for 100 pts Dec 31st

Edm 15 15

Was 1 1

phi 2 7

Bos 3 6

Pit 4 4

TB 5 12 StevieY

Mon 6 8

Buf 7 3

NYR 8 9

Car 9 11

Tor 10 15

NJ 11 2 Coaching Change

Atl 12 10

Ott 13 5

NYI 14 13

Flo 15 14

Notice how consistent Cgy has been yr to yr?

Vancouver doesn't exhibit any potential factors that would indicate they are in for any sort of significant shift in standing.

Maybe injury is a potential one... but Vancouver had a massive amount of injuries that they were able to overcome last yr...

Imagine if they were healthy all season... scary.

1. Vancouver lost Defenceman Christian Ehrhoff

2. Vancouver players last season dropped in pt totals from 2 seasons ago - H. Sedin, Burrows, Kesler, Samuelson, Raymond, Malhotra, Edler, Hamhuis, Bieksa, Salo, Ballard. the Canucks are getting older and slower.

3. Raymond is coming off a major back surgery.

4. Malhotra is coming off a major eye surgery.

These are just some of the obvious facts.

I've erased everything that was your opinion... and left the only actual facts you apparently intended... (you seem confused about the difference between the 2)

Burrows, Samuelsson, Raymond, Malhotra, Edler, Hamhius, Bieksa, Salo, Ballard missed a combined 176 games last season.

But otherwise, you're talking about H Sedin who was 4th in league scoring (higher than Iginla) and Kesler(26) - who jumped up by 16g to be a 40g scorer and win a Selke.. yup - on the down slopes of their careers.

If thats your method of determining whether a player has peaked... Langkow sucks and his career is pretty much done yet you have people penciling him on your top line.... 107pts?

Guess which team is actually, Factually, older and/or slower: Calgary or Vancouver...

Calgary

33 and over - Kipper, Langkow, Iginla, Morrison

32 Jokinen, Ivanas, Kostopoulos, Sarich

31 Hagman, Tanguay,

30

29 Moss, Bourque, Jackman

28 Glencross

27 Stajan, JBo, Babchuk, Giordano, karlsson

26

25 and under - Butler, Backlund, Carson, Mikkelson

Vancouver

33 and over - Samuelsson, Salo

32 Luongo, Strum

31 Malhotra

30 Sedin, Sedin, Burrows, Bieksa

29

28 Higgens, Ballard, Hamhuis, Ebbett

27 Bitz, Rome

26 Kesler, Lapierre, Mancari

25 and under - Raymond, Edler, Oreskovich, Hodgson, Schneider, Tanev, Hansen

You'll probably reply with something stupid without any evidence or some irrelevant fact with your Canuck biased opinion.

LOL - - like every Derfin post in Derf history?

Derf!

Balls in your hands now DL... whatcha got?

rational logic.

(and i don't know anything about your lifestyle, but the saying is "Ball's in your court now.." :mellow:

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History strongly shows the opposite... that how a team does one yr does in fact strongly correlate to how they do the next season.

You willing to take it to the bank that the Classless Canucks are going to Finish 1st again and the Flames finish consistently at 10th? I'm willing to break my bank that this won't happen!

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You willing to take it to the bank that the Classless Canucks are going to Finish 1st again and the Flames finish consistently at 10th? I'm willing to break my bank that this won't happen!

I'm willing to take it to the bank that the Classless Canucks finish much closer to 1st than 10th... and the that Flames finish closer to 10th than 1st.

Also willing to bet that classless canucks finish ahead of the flames.

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I'm willing to take it to the bank that the Classless Canucks finish much closer to 1st than 10th... and the that Flames finish closer to 10th than 1st.

Also willing to bet that classless canucks finish ahead of the flames.

If the Canucks come 1-5th place and Calgary finishes over 6 and over you win. If not I win.... What's the wager?

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If the Canucks come 1-5th place and Calgary finishes over 6 and over you win. If not I win.... What's the wager?

naw.. let's go strictly points.... and i'll give you 3 different ways to win...

If Calgary's pt total is closer to 1st in the West than it is 10th...

OR

If Vancouver's pt total is closer to 10th than it is 1st...

OR

If Calgary finishes ahead of the Canucks...

You win... (three ways of winning.)

Only exception : I automatically win if Vancouver is actually is the #1 seed in the West again.

In order for me to win, the opposite of all 3 listed above have to occur...

i.e.

If Calgary's pt total is closer to 10th in the West than it is 1st...

AND

If Vancouver's pt total is closer to 1st than it is 10th...

AND

If Canucks finish ahead of the Flames...

OR

Vancouver wins the West.

Simple avatar bet...

if you win... i have to wear one you select for the duration of the playoffs.

If i will, you have to wear one i select for the duration of the off-season.

Difference in duration representing you having more chances to win.

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So who scores more points next yr:

Battle of the #1 offensive Dmen:

Giordano or Edler?

Gio, (Oct 1983) coming off of a breakthru 43 pt season..

Edler, (Apr 1986) coming off of a 33 pt season (53 pt pace)..

Battle of the ex-Panthers...

Bouwmeester or Ballard?

Jbo, (Sept 1983) coming off of 2 seasons in Cal where he averaged 27 pts..

Ballard, (Nov 1982) coming off a 7pt season in Van, but had avged 30pts/yr previous..

Battle of the B's..

Bourque vs Burrows?

Bourque, (Dec 1981) coming off a 27g, 50pt season..

Burrows, (Apr 1981) coming off a 26g, 48pt season..

Goals only, The top line wingers...

Iginla vs Daniel?

Iginla, (Jul 1977) coming off of 43g..

Daniel, (Sep 1980) coming off of 41g..

Who gets more Shutouts...

Kiprusoff vs Luongo?

Kipper, (Oct 1976) 10 shutouts the last 2 seasons..

Luongo, (Apr 1979) 8 shutouts the last 2 seasons..

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if Edler keeps that 50 point pace, I don't think Giordano touches him. I don't see Giordano as a 50 point defenseman (then again, I didn't see him as a legitimate top 2 defenseman either :P). As a side note, Feaster apparently thinks Anton Babchuk is capable of posting 50 points :wacko: Don't know if he means this season, but I would think that implies Feaster thinks he's a top 4...

I think it's about time Sutter figures out how to use Bouwmeester offensively. It's his goals that have taken a hit mostly since he joined the Flames. Ballard has a lot of significant players ahead of him on Vancouver, and he'll have to play his way out of Vigneault's dog house. Don't know.

Bourque needs to re-learn how to play intensely. If Burrows plays all year with the Sedins he should get around 30 goals.

Iginla will get more goals than Daniel. That might just be the Flames fan talking, but it's usually true.

More shutouts..? I don't know, really. Kiprusoff has so much variance in his season-to-season performance, that it's really hard to say which Kiprusoff will play in the season. 09/10 version? 10/11? Given that Regehr is gone, it seems reasonable that Kiprusoff will have less than the 6 shutouts he posted last season. I'm betting that he and Luongo post the same number.

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if Edler keeps that 50 point pace, I don't think Giordano touches him. I don't see Giordano as a 50 point defenseman (then again, I didn't see him as a legitimate top 2 defenseman either :P). As a side note, Feaster apparently thinks Anton Babchuk is capable of posting 50 points :wacko: Don't know if he means this season, but I would think that implies Feaster thinks he's a top 4...

I think it's about time Sutter figures out how to use Bouwmeester offensively. It's his goals that have taken a hit mostly since he joined the Flames. Ballard has a lot of significant players ahead of him on Vancouver, and he'll have to play his way out of Vigneault's dog house. Don't know.

Bourque needs to re-learn how to play intensely. If Burrows plays all year with the Sedins he should get around 30 goals.

Iginla will get more goals than Daniel. That might just be the Flames fan talking, but it's usually true.

More shutouts..? I don't know, really. Kiprusoff has so much variance in his season-to-season performance, that it's really hard to say which Kiprusoff will play in the season. 09/10 version? 10/11? Given that Regehr is gone, it seems reasonable that Kiprusoff will have less than the 6 shutouts he posted last season. I'm betting that he and Luongo post the same number.

a good fair analysis.. I'll agree generally with every point you've made... but i think JBo will get more than Ballard next yr.

Depends on how Ballard is used... if he's used offensively, he will absolutely flourish. I can see him playing behind the Sedins... thats where his defensive game will be protected as he comes back up to speed and regains his confidence. don't think he'll jack it up to 30pts this yr tho... since there is Edler ahead of him to get that prime Sedin ice... but he's capable.

Babchuk is an interesting one you mentioned...

A huge 6'5 27 yr old with a monster shot. entering his prime. coming off a 35pt campaign.

He's expected to play a more significant role than his 16 mins/gm last yr.

(that's very good production for 16mins/gm.)

On numbers alone, if he sees 20 mins/gm and maintains the same production rate...***works on his calculator***...

That's 8 more points... to 43.

but obviously production rate would take a slight hit since the added 3.65 mins would likely be less opportunist than his 16.35 mins of last yr. i.e. more defensive situations. But still.. a highly likely 40 pt Dman already...

His production rates were comparable to Ehrhoff and Edler.. and better than the likes of - Giordano, Letang, Seabrook, Boyle, Weber, Burns.... (but they are all-around high-minute dmen, so its not exactly an accurate comparison..)

We'll see how Babchuk handles an expanded role IF he gets one... or does Butler slot in and take the extra defensive minutes available. we will see.

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I do have some hope that Babchuk can be more than just a bottom pairing, top powerplay guy who starts 70% of his shifts in the offensive zone, and sees some of the most sheltered ice in the league. Some, but I haven't seen enough to be very confident about it.

One thing is, as you mentioned, his size. If he can play more physically (especially in front of the net) that would immediately improve his defensive zone upside. Another is the fact that he's already an accomplished shot blocker. I believe he was in or near the top 20 in the league last season (Giordano was 3rd). If he could round out his game some, and be a legitimate 2nd pair defenseman I'd have more confidence in Feaster's projections for him. I fully expect Butler to find himself in a top 4 role before the end of the season. He's more reliable defensively than Babchuk, and he has good mobility. Sutter likes players he can rely on in the defensive zone (one reason I continue to have high hopes for John Negrin in spite of the injuries). However, Butler is only 25, and he was fairly sheltered for the majority of his time in Buffalo.

I was perusing some stats yesterday, and I saw that Jay Bouwmeester's ice time has actually decreased since he joined the Flames (especially powerplay time). Mostly though, it has been shooting less (and presumably, less effectively, given his shooting percentages) that has seen his goal production dry up in Calgary. In the 2005/06 season, Bouwmeester had a 2.6% shooting percentage with 5 goals (comprable to his last 2 seasons with 2.3 and 3.3% respectively, only with more total shots). However, he also had 41 assists that year, a career high by a wide margin. The next 3 years, his shot% increased markedly (6.9,8.2,8.2) while the # of shots stayed relatively the same, resulting in more goals (12,15,15). Since he arrived in Calgary, his %ges have dropped again, but this time his shot totals have dropped as well, resulting in goal production approaching his career lows. If Bouwmeester starts shooting more again, will he start scoring more? Or even if his % start rolling back up to the higher totals of his last 3 seasons in Florida? Which % is more indicative of the real Bouwmeester, the 3.3% or the 6.9%? I think we may get an answer this upcoming season.

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:lol:

Carcillo. What an idiot.

In a press conference introducing himself and Andrew Brunette, a question got asked about the Hawks current rivalry with the Canucks. He says something like "I look forward to playing them because there are a few guys that run around that I feel I can keep in check". Someone asks him to name specific players and he says "Laperierre, Glass and Torres".

Check the Canucks roster Dan, there isn't a single player on there by any of those names. :lol:

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Loved it...

I like Carcillo's jackassedness... if he can eliminate even 50% of his misconducts he would be a hell of a piece to have.

Watched the guy score his hattrick a couple yrs ago and he has a good skill set there that he's been too distracted to refine and develop.

This presser suggests it will continue to be a secondary portion of his game.. Love how it definitely sets the stage for yr 4 of this thriving rivalry.. for the first time it's the Hawks who's last memory of the previous season is the handshake line with the Canucks...

Another juicy storyline to watch for this season... What will Lapierre say to Carcillo that gets him to lose his mind and egt kicked outta a game?

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Hawks vs Canucks opening song:

1,2 Carbomb's after you

3,4 hide behind the door

& Don, Carcillo said Lapierre. If the writer originally spelled it wrong it's not his fault. Obviously he was referring to Maxim rather then Ian.

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& Don, Carcillo said Lapierre. If the writer originally spelled it wrong it's not his fault. Obviously he was referring to Maxim rather then Ian.

thows stoopid riters, wat well dey git rong neckst thyme?

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Hawks vs Canucks opening song:

1,2 Carbomb's after you

3,4 hide behind the door

& Don, Carcillo said Lapierre. If the writer originally spelled it wrong it's not his fault. Obviously he was referring to Maxim rather then Ian.

He indeed did not. I saw it on Sportscenter.

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He indeed did not. I saw it on Sportscenter.

TSN still has the full clip on their site. He mispronounced the name & corrected himself.

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TSN still has the full clip on their site. He mispronounced the name & corrected himself.

Actually he said it twice, and a reporter had to correct him. ;)

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Actually he said it twice, and a reporter had to correct him. ;)

& he laughed as if he doesn't really care because he really doesn't worry about taking the guy on. He doesn't care if he mispronounces the name because he doesn't consider him a threat.

Maybe the twins should drop their gloves in unison. He'd be laughing so hard he might have a heart attack.

:lol::lol: (Had to use 2 as you can't leave out either Sedin.)

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& he laughed as if he doesn't really care because he really doesn't worry about taking the guy on. He doesn't care if he mispronounces the name because he doesn't consider him a threat.

Maybe the twins should drop their gloves in unison. He'd be laughing so hard he might have a heart attack.

:lol::lol: (Had to use 2 as you can't leave out either Sedin.)

Or maybe he is just so stupid that he doesn't actually know his name? Or that the other two he mentioned are no longer Canucks?

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Or maybe he is just so stupid that he doesn't actually know his name? Or that the other two he mentioned are no longer Canucks?

Not as stupid as Canucks Fans(Friggin rioters) BTW are Canucks Fans vacationing in London right now??? hahahhaha

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Not as stupid as Canucks Fans(Friggin rioters) BTW are Canucks Fans vacationing in London right now??? hahahhaha

Hey dude, please tone down the trash talking in here.

This thread is intended for mature Canucks discussions.

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