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22 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

Suggesting that Tampa lost because of Grit is funny.

Believe that grit wins series is fine, but it's only one factor.

Without it you can win.

Without decent defense you can win as long as you have great goaltending and goal scoring.

 

You are more likely to lose a grit player to a suspension (Kadri, Wilson) than one that brings skill alone.

Maroon was a factor in some games, but not all. 

I never said TBL lost because of grit, I implied that skill does not always win out.  Actually, there are probably as many different ways to win as there are winners, but what I’m also saying is the Flames needed some more grit/ability to respond when the play got more physical and the checking tighter.  It doesn’t help that the refs tend to swallow their whistles come playoffs, allowing players to get away with clear penalties.  If your players cannot fight through the tougher, physical style of the playoffs it doesn’t matter how skilled they might be because the refs prefer/allow a more physical versus a pure skill game.  That difference was clearly a big factor in the CBJ, BOS, NYI, STL and COL wins this year and likely will be in the future.  Over the years the league has been migrating away from the rough and tumble past, probably due to concussion liability, but it still increases during playoffs.  I kind of get the feeling that Bettman loves it as well as another field-leveling measure that gives any team more of a chance, without the Crosby etc superstars which are few and far between.

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33 minutes ago, cccsberg said:

I never said TBL lost because of grit, I implied that skill does not always win out.  Actually, there are probably as many different ways to win as there are winners, but what I’m also saying is the Flames needed some more grit/ability to respond when the play got more physical and the checking tighter.  It doesn’t help that the refs tend to swallow their whistles come playoffs, allowing players to get away with clear penalties.  If your players cannot fight through the tougher, physical style of the playoffs it doesn’t matter how skilled they might be because the refs prefer/allow a more physical versus a pure skill game.  That difference was clearly a big factor in the CBJ, BOS, NYI, STL and COL wins this year and likely will be in the future.  Over the years the league has been migrating away from the rough and tumble past, probably due to concussion liability, but it still increases during playoffs.  I kind of get the feeling that Bettman loves it as well as another field-leveling measure that gives any team more of a chance, without the Crosby etc superstars which are few and far between.

 

And yet we ended up with 86 minutes in penalties.

Game 3alone we served 50 minutes and allowed 56 shots.

Would grit have helped there?

 

It's a difference in perception.  You see missing grit as the missing piece in the Flames playoffs.

I see missing execution, poor D-zone and neutral zone coverage, poor PK and PP.

We outhit them in all but one game.

 

Let's be clear.  Not every playoff series is the same.  Who knows what we would have been like in the 2nd round or beyond.

I saw a team unprepared for the pace. 

 

As far as trades?

Frolik for Josh Andersson for sure, but that's because I like his style of game.

We don't make that trade since it makes no sense for them.

Janko for a 2-way C?

Sure, but he doesn;t have to be gritty.

 

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1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

And yet we ended up with 86 minutes in penalties.

Game 3alone we served 50 minutes and allowed 56 shots.

Would grit have helped there?

 

It's a difference in perception.  You see missing grit as the missing piece in the Flames playoffs.

I see missing execution, poor D-zone and neutral zone coverage, poor PK and PP.

We outhit them in all but one game.

 

Let's be clear.  Not every playoff series is the same.  Who knows what we would have been like in the 2nd round or beyond.

I saw a team unprepared for the pace. 

 

As far as trades?

Frolik for Josh Andersson for sure, but that's because I like his style of game.

We don't make that trade since it makes no sense for them.

Janko for a 2-way C?

Sure, but he doesn;t have to be gritty.

 

You seem to be assuming that “grit” equates to penalties.  Actually it’s just the opposite.  When you play physical, in-your-face hockey you frustrate the other team, who strike back in frustration and get penalties.  This happened.  Actually, we probably are in close agreement except getting caught up in semantics.  To me, grit is not penalties, it’s not just hitting.  It’s being difficult to play against, it’s consistency, it’s close coverage and physical when the opportunity presents itself, it’s battling and being determined enough to win those battles.  

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59 minutes ago, cccsberg said:

You seem to be assuming that “grit” equates to penalties.  Actually it’s just the opposite.  When you play physical, in-your-face hockey you frustrate the other team, who strike back in frustration and get penalties.  This happened.  Actually, we probably are in close agreement except getting caught up in semantics.  To me, grit is not penalties, it’s not just hitting.  It’s being difficult to play against, it’s consistency, it’s close coverage and physical when the opportunity presents itself, it’s battling and being determined enough to win those battles.  

 

I honestly have no idea what grit is anymore.

If you consider Maroon and Wilson as gritty, then those guys take penalties.

Bennett is gritty and takes penalties.

Backlund and Gio are difficult to play against but took the playoffs off.

Tkachuk was almost a non-factor.

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40 minutes ago, jjgallow said:


Been watchin too many Flames games maybe

Unfortunately, that is probably true.

 

In today's NHL, I think grit is another word for hard working.  Continuously doing the things that aren't fun...blocking shots, taking hits to make plays, back checking as hard as you forecheck, battling in front of both nets and standing up for team mates.

 

While I think the Flames are lacking in some of this grit/work ethic, I also think there is also a size element to it.  Most of the Flames forwards are small (Gaudreau, Ryan, Mangiapane, Czarnik, Dube), or they don't use their size to their advantage (Monahan, Jankowski, and to a lesser extent Backlund and Frolik).  

 

If I was a defenseman on another NHL team, I would look at the Flames roster and think "these guys can score a lot of goals, but I won't need any ice packs after the game."  

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2 hours ago, stubblejumper1 said:

Unfortunately, that is probably true.

 

In today's NHL, I think grit is another word for hard working.  Continuously doing the things that aren't fun...blocking shots, taking hits to make plays, back checking as hard as you forecheck, battling in front of both nets and standing up for team mates.

 

While I think the Flames are lacking in some of this grit/work ethic, I also think there is also a size element to it.  Most of the Flames forwards are small (Gaudreau, Ryan, Mangiapane, Czarnik, Dube), or they don't use their size to their advantage (Monahan, Jankowski, and to a lesser extent Backlund and Frolik).  

 

If I was a defenseman on another NHL team, I would look at the Flames roster and think "these guys can score a lot of goals, but I won't need any ice packs after the game."  

 

If you are talking about the playoffs, nobody really played playoff hockey.

Hamonic and RAs were the closest we had ton D to play for the team.

AT forward, I will suggest that Bennett, Mangiapane and Lindholm were among the few to play playoff hockey.

That really doesn't matter if your best players are not playing their best, regardless of if they are playing gritty, soft or whatever.

Monahan was not at his best.  Not because he wouldn't take one for the team, but that he was not playing well.

Backlund is able to shutdown the like of McDavid, but somehow let McKinnon walk all over him.

JH played small, only because he had nobody playing with drive.

Lindholm wasn't soft, but he also wasn't doing anything with the puck.

 

<Rant over>

 

Next playoffs it will be a small, fast team winning the cup.

All teams will copy the model.

The following playoffs it will be a bunch of douchebags that win, because every other team went small and fast.

 

You need a fix, plain and simple.  Lucic might help if that is the only goon-ish player we get.

Mangiapane and Gaudreau will help more, because they have the speed to get into and out of situations.

Play like we did in April, and it doesn't matter who is on the team.

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36 minutes ago, travel_dude said:

 

If you are talking about the playoffs, nobody really played playoff hockey.

Hamonic and RAs were the closest we had ton D to play for the team.

AT forward, I will suggest that Bennett, Mangiapane and Lindholm were among the few to play playoff hockey.

That really doesn't matter if your best players are not playing their best, regardless of if they are playing gritty, soft or whatever.

Monahan was not at his best.  Not because he wouldn't take one for the team, but that he was not playing well.

Backlund is able to shutdown the like of McDavid, but somehow let McKinnon walk all over him.

JH played small, only because he had nobody playing with drive.

Lindholm wasn't soft, but he also wasn't doing anything with the puck.

 

<Rant over>

 

Next playoffs it will be a small, fast team winning the cup.

All teams will copy the model.

The following playoffs it will be a bunch of douchebags that win, because every other team went small and fast.

 

You need a fix, plain and simple.  Lucic might help if that is the only goon-ish player we get.

Mangiapane and Gaudreau will help more, because they have the speed to get into and out of situations.

Play like we did in April, and it doesn't matter who is on the team.

 

 

I apologise for my witty remark.

 

I couldn't resist lol.

 

I just, don't ever see a small team winning the cup though, and I'm not sure I've ever seen one.

 

Fast, yes. Small, no.   I thought we learned this with Theo Fleury leading the charge but history repeats itself.

 

We went small, to begin with, because the organization was unwilling to commit to full rebuild.  They wanted to rebuild while "winning now".

 

Smaller players are cheaper.

 

Now we're learning why.

 

again.

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44 minutes ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

I apologise for my witty remark.

 

I couldn't resist lol.

 

I just, don't ever see a small team winning the cup though, and I'm not sure I've ever seen one.

 

Fast, yes. Small, no.   I thought we learned this with Theo Fleury leading the charge but history repeats itself.

 

We went small, to begin with, because the organization was unwilling to commit to full rebuild.  They wanted to rebuild while "winning now".

 

Smaller players are cheaper.

 

Now we're learning why.

 

again.

I feel at the end of the day,.  Bill Torre's statement to Brian Burke nailed it..

It's no the heavy team , it's not the fast and skilled team and it's not the great Specialty Team that wins the cup.. it's the one that can beat all 3

 

We have skill, we are a much better at  specialty teams. But we get beat up by the heavy teams 

 

Nobody knows better what this team is missing than the players in that room..so it says a lot when Frolik states we needed more heaviness,. Gio is pumped to have Lucic and Johnny is over the moon at getting Lucic as well 

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7 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

I honestly have no idea what grit is anymore.

If you consider Maroon and Wilson as gritty, then those guys take penalties.

Bennett is gritty and takes penalties.

Backlund and Gio are difficult to play against but took the playoffs off.

Tkachuk was almost a non-factor.

I’d say Bennett and Hamonic and Gio are our grittiest players.  Bennett does get penalties but most are due to laziness or retaliation, I’d say and not being gritty.

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On 8/9/2019 at 2:32 PM, Heartbreaker said:

This thread has been hijacked. It could be the biggest thread in the history of this forum, which surely Jessemadnote39 could not have imagined. He still posts every once in a while on Reddit, but I haven't seen him 'round these parts in ages. Anyway, the man is clearly a visionary - the Joe Sutter of Calgary Flames Message Board threads. To commemorate the 747th page, I bring you some high quality jet porn. 

 

So, planes did the hijacking... clever :ph34r:

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11 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

 

I apologise for my witty remark.

 

I couldn't resist lol.

 

I just, don't ever see a small team winning the cup though, and I'm not sure I've ever seen one.

 

Fast, yes. Small, no.   I thought we learned this with Theo Fleury leading the charge but history repeats itself.

 

We went small, to begin with, because the organization was unwilling to commit to full rebuild.  They wanted to rebuild while "winning now".

 

Smaller players are cheaper.

 

Now we're learning why.

 

again.

 

No offence taken.

The rebuild would have been better if they managed to get value from the aging stars.

They didn't.

 

All I am really saying is that we need some depth on the RW and C.

I like Janko, but he is not exactly blowing the doors off.

Brodie needs to go, but only for 50% of his game which infuriates me.

Frolik is a luxury and could be spent elsewhere.

 

MY suggestions for trade have included Josh Anderson, Montour, Danault, Roslovik, Kase, Silfverberg, Kadri, Nylander, Ehlers and others.

Some would fit, but all would help in some way shape or form.

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1 hour ago, travel_dude said:

 

No offence taken.

The rebuild would have been better if they managed to get value from the aging stars.

They didn't.

 

All I am really saying is that we need some depth on the RW and C.

I like Janko, but he is not exactly blowing the doors off.

Brodie needs to go, but only for 50% of his game which infuriates me.

Frolik is a luxury and could be spent elsewhere.

 

MY suggestions for trade have included Josh Anderson, Montour, Danault, Roslovik, Kase, Silfverberg, Kadri, Nylander, Ehlers and others.

Some would fit, but all would help in some way shape or form.

I'm still no convinced Frolik NEEDS to go. Whether the incident with his agent was Fro's doing, who knows. All I know is if you lose Frolik you lose a RW that kills penalties, good for about 35 - 40 pts, gives 110% every night, and wether good or bad he seems to compliment Backlunds game.  Yes $4.3 mil is a tough pill right now but if a comparable replacement cant be found in a deal then I'm ok with him staying.

 

That being said, anyone know why he was in  Peters doghouse to start with?

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43 minutes ago, flames-fan-in-jets-land said:

I'm still no convinced Frolik NEEDS to go. Whether the incident with his agent was Fro's doing, who knows. All I know is if you lose Frolik you lose a RW that kills penalties, good for about 35 - 40 pts, gives 110% every night, and wether good or bad he seems to compliment Backlunds game.  Yes $4.3 mil is a tough pill right now but if a comparable replacement cant be found in a deal then I'm ok with him staying.

 

That being said, anyone know why he was in  Peters doghouse to start with?

only problem is the closer you get to the TDL the less you get , and past that you lose him for nothing 

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14 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

I just, don't ever see a small team winning the cup though, and I'm not sure I've ever seen one.

 

Pittsburgh's back to back teams were below league average for size.  Boston the team that almost won was around the same size range as this years Flames (even with a giant they were shorter).  

YTPlf95.thumb.png.d694cc180ceade3e539fa2620a64b899.png

 

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1 minute ago, sak22 said:

Pittsburgh's back to back teams were below league average for size.  Boston the team that almost won was around the same size range as this years Flames (even with a giant they were shorter).  

YTPlf95.thumb.png.d694cc180ceade3e539fa2620a64b899.png

 

This is a good graphic. Size always seems to be the most convenient narrative when we fail to reach expectations. I don’t look back on the 5 game loss to Colorado and feel the Calgary was simply outmuscled and intimidated, the Avs just played much better hockey than the Flames and the gap in play was so large that it resulted in a gentleman’s sweep. It was a case of a team that was hot against a team that coasted into the postseason, not a big -bruising team against a team afraid of being hit...

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3 hours ago, sak22 said:

Pittsburgh's back to back teams were below league average for size.  Boston the team that almost won was around the same size range as this years Flames (even with a giant they were shorter).  

 

So that is a great graphic.      If it's accurate  (I never make this assumption).

 

But when looking at data it's important not to just look for the answers you want to have.

 

The answer is staring right at you.

 

Who won the cup and where are they on that graph?

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5 hours ago, sak22 said:

Pittsburgh's back to back teams were below league average for size.  Boston the team that almost won was around the same size range as this years Flames (even with a giant they were shorter).  

YTPlf95.thumb.png.d694cc180ceade3e539fa2620a64b899.png

 

 

Thanks for posting.  

 

We are right there with the cluster but still need to get a bit bigger.  I'm glad we are not Montreal but we are closer to the Habs than the Cup champs.

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Sill just thinking of how best to utilize this data, which I do like,

 

I think the most appropriate way might be density.     Pounds per square inch of height.   Or some variation thereof.

 

By that measure I believe we are 6th worst in the league.  Behind Boston, behind most.

 

 

What the graph doesn't capture is that our best player is so small they are completely ineffective in the playoffs.

 

I know people are saying we'll just surround him with Lucics but I...don't have a great feeling about that approach.  I think it is what it is.    We could bring up a bunch of 6'5 250 pound players from the AHL right now, and be over there with St. Louis.  But our best player would still be entirely ineffective in the playoffs.

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4 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

So that is a great graphic.      If it's accurate  (I never make this assumption).

 

But when looking at data it's important not to just look for the answers you want to have.

 

The answer is staring right at you.

 

Who won the cup and where are they on that graph?

 

A bit simplified don't you think?

EDM had a tall team, but undersized in the weight dept.

LA was big and tall.

NYR was like EDM.

Heavier players tend to be tall and older.

A team with a guy 5'9" is going to be shorter average and lighter.

A team with younger guys is going to be lighter.

BOS, for instance, is ligher and smaller than STL, but they were in contention until the lost a key player or two.

 

STL was an outlier this season.

Not exactly a contender.

One of the best teams from January on, though.

Strangely enough, once they got Billington.

Hot goalie = cup.  This year.

Last year it was speed and youth versus vet laden team.

 

For the Flames to win this year, we need Norris Gio.

And Vezina Rittich.

And Selke Backlund.

And Con Smythe Gaudreau. 

 

Not because we need all of those things, but because we need to break the Disneyland-style curse and get past the first round.

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2 hours ago, travel_dude said:

 

A bit simplified don't you think?

EDM had a tall team, but undersized in the weight dept.

LA was big and tall.

NYR was like EDM.

Heavier players tend to be tall and older.

A team with a guy 5'9" is going to be shorter average and lighter.

A team with younger guys is going to be lighter.

BOS, for instance, is ligher and smaller than STL, but they were in contention until the lost a key player or two.

 

STL was an outlier this season.

Not exactly a contender.

One of the best teams from January on, though.

Strangely enough, once they got Billington.

Hot goalie = cup.  This year.

Last year it was speed and youth versus vet laden team.

 

For the Flames to win this year, we need Norris Gio.

And Vezina Rittich.

And Selke Backlund.

And Con Smythe Gaudreau. 

 

Not because we need all of those things, but because we need to break the Disneyland-style curse and get past the first round.

 

All that is true and yet our best player is totally ineffective in the playoffs.

 

Yes, it is that simplistic.

 

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

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15 hours ago, jjgallow said:

 

So that is a great graphic.      If it's accurate  (I never make this assumption).

 

But when looking at data it's important not to just look for the answers you want to have.

 

The answer is staring right at you.

 

Who won the cup and where are they on that graph?

Yup, STL sure stands out, as does LAK, WAS.... on the other side BOS is the clear anomaly, though grittiness IS their culture so perhaps choosing those type of guys more than makes up for the size difference.

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